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Tired of spending your money on rent or stashing it in a traditional savings account? You could make your money work harder for you and get on the path to financial freedom with real estate investing. Today, we’re going to show you exactly how to buy your first rental property in 2025, step by step!

Despite rising home prices and high interest rates, now is an ideal time for new investors to buy real estate, as they face less competition and have even more leverage. So, in this episode, Ashley and Tony are going to show you seven steps that will get you off the sidelines and into the game! First, we’ll help you lay a foundation for investing. You’ll not only need to get your financial house in order but also set clear investing goals, determine your purchasing power, and choose your investing strategy.

You’ll also learn how to do things like find a lender, choose your market, and assemble your investing team. Then, we’ll start looking at deals! We’ll share how to build your buy box, analyze properties, and negotiate with sellers. Most importantly, we’ll teach you the right way to build your business so that you succeed today AND as you scale your real estate portfolio!

Ashley:
Hey, rookies, are you tired of watching your money sit stagnant and low yield savings accounts or giving your money away in rent every month in 2025? Real estate investing could be your path to financial freedom.

Tony:
And in today’s episode, we’ll break down the current market landscape and give you a step-by-step roadmap to help you start your real estate investing journey.

Ashley:
We will give you the knowledge and confidence to get started in real estate. I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson, and welcome to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast.

Ashley:
Okay, Tony, before we actually jump into the action steps you need to take to get your first deal or even your next deal, let’s talk about why you should invest in real estate right now. Tony, are you seeing any market indicators or economic indicators as to why someone should invest right now in real estate?

Tony:
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that we’re seeing is that even with all of the kind of fluctuations in real estate, we’re still seeing that over the long term property values are continuing to go up and people are still building wealth. And as we continue to see, I think the supply of housing be constrained, right? That’s been a big talk for quite some time now is that there just isn’t enough housing to absorb all the demand for the people that hold that limited supply. It typically is going to put you in a really good position, especially if you look out over a longer time horizon of five years, 10 years, 20 years, because you’re going to get a lot of appreciation on top of the cashflow that you’re continuing to generate. So I think just the fact that there’s this big imbalance between supply and demand is going to play in our favor. And then irrespective of your political beliefs, I think having a president in office who’s a real estate investor, there’ll probably be some good things that come our way as well. I saw a clip, I don’t know where he was speaking at, but he said that hey, bringing back 100% bonus appreciation, very much something that he wants to do, and all of us as real estate investors benefit from that. So I think there’s a lot of things working in the favor of real estate investors today. What about you, Ash? What are you seeing?

Ashley:
Yeah, I think right now that if you’re going to start investing in real estate, it should be a long-term play. This isn’t going to be a get rich quick scheme. You’re not, in most cases going to see amazing cash flow because you’re getting a property at such a low interest rate. Your mortgage payment is lower, rents are super high. So you have that cashflow buffer that maybe you got a couple of years ago. That’s definitely going to be harder to find now. But I think if you are putting in long-term goals for real estate to actually build wealth, then I think definitely now is still a great time to invest in real estate.

Tony:
I think the other thing too, Ashley, to add to that is that we’re in this kind of weird spot and we’ve been here for a little while now, and we’ll probably be here at least through a good portion of this year. But I think we’re in this weird spot where the demand, the number of people who are looking to purchase properties is nowhere near what it was in 2021 and 2022. So there’s fewer people looking for properties now, supply is also lighter than it was because there are a lot of people locked into these lower interest rates. 4% and below that don’t necessarily want to sell. But for the properties that are listed, I think we’re in a really unique opportunity right now because since there is less competition, it means that you as a buyer have slightly more leverage. And it means that if a property’s on the market and it’s been sitting for 30, 60, 90 days, you’ve got the ability to go there and go in there and start negotiating on things like price negotiating on things like credits, negotiating on things like whatever other terms are important to you. So if you are a rookie who’s sitting on the sideline and you don’t want to have to get in when rates are back to 5% and maybe you’re, it was crazy buying real estate at one point, it was so hard. And if you want to avoid that kind of bloodbath of so many people fighting over the same deal, this might be a great time where you as a buyer have a little bit more leverage.

Ashley:
Now if you’re considering your first deal or maybe even moving on to your next deal, another consideration besides just the timing right now, is also your own personal financial foundation. Are you actually ready and prepared financially to invest in real estate? So we did a YouTube video. You can head over to Real Estate Rookie on YouTube, unless you’re already here watching right now. And it was released on March 4th, and it’s a video about how to financially prepare yourself to invest in real estate. So go ahead and go check out that video. Let’s get into step one. So besides getting your personal finances in order, there’s some other things you need to do to kind of lay the foundation for your first investment. One of those things is figuring out what your goal is and what your priority is. So why do you even want to invest? What do you want to get out of it?

Tony:
Yeah, I think a lot of people get into, they get so excited about investing in real estate that they don’t really take a moment to pause and understand why they’re doing this and what their actual priorities are. There’s different reasons people invest. You have cashflow, you have the appreciation, you have tax benefits if you’re doing something like short-term rental until you have maybe owning cool vacation properties and places you like to go. But with those motivations, oftentimes you won’t be able to equally satisfy all of them with one property. You probably won’t get a property that’s going to give you amazing cashflow, amazing appreciation, and amazing tax benefits and oh, it’s a place that I love to go vacation. So more often than not, you’ll have to choose which one is most important. And I think that’s where most rookies make a mistake is that they don’t make that decision and then they’ve just this kind of shotgun approach on strategy and market.

Ashley:
So the next thing you should be figuring out when you’ve set your financials is going to get pre-approved or figure out how you’re going to fund this deal. How are you going to pay for it? Is it going to be cash that you have? Is it going to be a mix of cash and bank financing? Will it be a line of credit on your primary residence? But you need to figure out what your purchasing power is. If you don’t know how much you are able to spend, you are going to be wasting so much time analyzing all these deals, looking in all these markets, looking at all these properties without even knowing what you can actually buy. How annoying is it? Have you guys ever gone to one of those wholesale stores where they dump everything off the truck that was overstock from Target and all these different places and you go and there’s just stuff piled everywhere and you walk through and there’s no prices on anything. You have to find someone, you have to barter with them. How do you walk through there and know what you can actually buy without knowing the prices? It’s so frustrating. So same with knowing your purchasing power or your property as to what can you afford, what can you be looking for?

Tony:
I think the last thing that rookies want to do is start investing a ton of energy and time into a city, into a market or into a property only to realize that it’s not even within their budget. Because who cares if you found the perfect city that checks all the boxes, if you can’t actually afford to buy there because you either don’t have the cash for down payment and closing costs, or B, the ability to get approved for the debt to buy in that market, then you just wasted a bunch of time. So that’s why Ash and I are saying starting with understanding your purchasing power, your cash on hand and your loan approval amount is one of those most important first steps.

Ashley:
And then you’ll also need to know what exact strategy you’re going after because your buy box is going to be tailored based upon what strategy you’re going after. So say Tony and I are both looking to invest in the same market, but he’s going for a short-term rental and I’m going for a long-term rental. He may be looking for a property with a pool because it will increase his daily rate, where myself, I don’t want to pool because it’s going to drive up my cost of insurance, having long-term rentals in there and a pool. So making sure your strategy, you’ve defined your buy box and what you’re actually going to be looking to buy.

Tony:
And just one additional point on top of that is I guess there is a bit of a distinction between strategy and asset class and having some understanding about those things I think is important as well. For example, with short-term rentals, you can have a single family short-term rental, which is the asset class. Short-term rentals of the strategy, single family is the asset class. You could have a quote, short-term rental with aids, small motel, you could have short-term rentals with a large hotel. Same thing for long-term. I can buy a single family property. So long-term is a strategy, single family is the asset class, or I could do long-term as a strategy and focus on small multifamily, four to 10 units, 20 units, I could do large multifamily, right? A hundred units and up. Still long-term rentals, but different assets. So understanding not only the strategy that you want to go after, but also the asset class is important to make sure that you are kind of putting all the other pieces in place correctly.

Ashley:
We are going to take a quick break, but we’ll be right back after this with more on how to get your first property.

Tony:
Alright guys, we’re back. So we talked about the foundational stuff. Now let’s get into the good stuff here, right? What’s the actual roadmap? So one of the most important questions you’re going to have to ask yourself is how am I actually going to fund this purchase? So our second step is to get you to talk to a lender, right? Your lender is going to be one of your best friends as you look to scale up your real estate portfolio. And I think Ash and I both would encourage you to do a couple of things when it comes to lending. Number one is talking to multiple people. I think we’ve seen enough folks who come on and they only go to one lender, that lender gives them an answer and they take that as the gospel. But I think there’s challenges in doing that or you make it more difficult for yourself because every lender has something that’s slightly different that they can offer to you.

Ashley:
And I think too, we’re going to get into market selection, but even if you don’t have your market selected, there are nationwide lenders where you could at least get an idea of what you would be approved for. So if you need help finding a lender to get your preapproval, you can head over to biggerpockets.com/lender and this is where you can find a lender that works with investors and can help you get that first investment.

Tony:
One other thing too that I just want to call on the lending side, and we’ve talked about this a lot in the rookie podcast also, is that there is a tremendous amount of value in going and working with small local regional banks. If you’ve got a good relationship with your local chase, your local B of A, sure go talk to them as well. But as you start to build your real estate portfolio, the small local banks are the ones that are going to have the most flexibility. And Ashley and I both as we built our portfolio, have built relationships with these small local banks that have given us loan products that we no way, in no way, shape or form would’ve gotten if we would’ve walked into Bank of America. My very first deal, my bank funded 100% of my purchase and my rehab. I could not walk into Bank of America and say, Hey guys, I got a killer deal for you. Check this out. There’s no way they would’ve said yes to that, but small local banks have the flexibility to do so. So whatever market you’re in, look up credit unions, look up regional banks and just go start talking to folks, see what they can offer you.

Ashley:
The next question kind of ties into this. You need to know what market you’re going to invest in because if you are going to use a small local bank, you’re going to want to use the small local bank that’s in the market that you’re buying the property. So one of the banks that I use now, it is such a small area that they will actually lend in. If I was going to get a property in the city of Buffalo, which is 25 to 30 minutes from where these bank locations are, they would not lend there. They want to stay nice in their little rural surrounding towns and only lend on those properties, but they have great flexibility and they know their market, they know their area, and they stick to it because they can tell when they’re looking at a property what is actually going to be a good investment for the bank to lend on to.
So when you’re looking for your market, the best place to go to actually find it is to go to the bigger package forums, go to the real estate rookie Facebook group, read, read the forums, read through the post or ask the question, where should I invest? Where are you investing and why are you investing there? Make a comment or make a post that shows your buy box, which strategy you’re looking for and that you need a market that fits that strategy. This is such an easy lift to do, even if you get no one that responds, which is very unlikely in these two groups. It took what, five minutes for you to type up that post and to post it. You will get so much information. Then go to the BiggerPockets forums and create a keyword so you can create keywords. So I have it set if anyone mentions buffalo, even if they’re talking about the animal buffalo instead of buffalo, New York, I will get, and I have gotten, there was a post about that where I got an alert and you have the alert set up right to your email and it says, this person’s talking about buffalo.
So if there is markets you’re interested in, start making keyword tags for them so that you’re getting updated information about them. Okay? Then you can go to the biggerpockets.com/resources and there’s a whole bunch of market analysis tools there. So the first things you need to know is your budget. So what markets can you actually afford to invest in? If you know you can only buy your purchasing powers only 200,000, you’re not going to waste your time looking in San Francisco for a property. Your strategy, if your strategy is long-term buy and hold, you most likely are not going to go and purchase in a destination area like Joshua Tree or maybe even the Smoky Mountains. Sure, there probably are deals out there, but those aren’t probably going to be your highest cashflow. You would make more money turning those into short-term rentals probably. So knowing your strategy and your purchasing power can help you narrow down what market you actually want to invest in.

Tony:
Yeah, we actually did an episode recently, Ashley and I and Dave Meyer from the Real Estate Podcast, and on the market it was episode 452 where we broke down market research for Ricky’s and each one of us picked a different market. We explained why. So if you want some more support on choosing your market as a Ricky Investor, episode 452 is a great place to go once you’ve chosen your market. Our next step is in building out your investment team and David Green who wrote several books for BiggerPockets, he’s oftentimes referenced this as your core four, but it’s the people that you’ll need around you as you look to build out your real estate investing empire. And I think for most rookies, the kind of core folks that you’ll need, your lender, which we already talked about, you’ll need a real estate agent, you’ll need an insurance broker, you’ll need potentially a property manager if you choose to self-manage or not. And usually you’ll need some sort of handyman contractor, someone that’s going to do that kind of work for you. And as you put those pieces together, that’s how you start building the confidence that you can actually do this thing, whether it is in your backyard or whether it’s long distance.

Ashley:
And I think it starts with finding one of those people and then using referrals, word of mouth, recommendations to actually build the rest of the team. So if you’re looking for deals, I would say an agent is a great place to start. Or if you know somebody that lives in the area that can be your boots on the ground that can tell you, no, I would not invest on that street, turn the corner, then I would buy a property there. That’s a way better area. So having somebody who has knowledge of the property, I think is super valuable to, even if they’re not an agent, they’re not a lender, anything like that, but they can be your eyes and your ears for the property I think is very valuable too.

Tony:
My very first deal, it was my agent that was kind of like, actually it was my lender, my lender and my agent kind of concurrently. They were like the lunch pin for me, but my lender introduced me to my agent and then they both introduced me to my contractor, to my property manager. And a good agent who’s well connected and who does a lot of volume in a certain city, typically has a lot of people in their Rolodex. So for all of our Ricky that are listening, if you want to find some of the best investor friendly agents on the planet, head over to biggerpockets.com/agent finder. Okay, biggerpockets.com/agent finder. Super quick, super easy, fill out a quick form and you’ll get all the top rated agents in whatever market it’s that you’re searching in.

Ashley:
To give it a real life example of this, I’ve used the same real estate agent. I’ve used a couple others, but she’s been the consistent one for a while now. And I bought a pocket listing from her last year, and I was flipping the property and an issue came up with the sump pump and it was delaying our closing. So she knew somebody that knew the building inspector, that knew who did the plumbing inspections, and just because of how well connected she was just from doing deals in this area, this property was the farthest away from my house that I’ve ever done. I didn’t know anybody in the area. I have a great contractor who worked out there and hired his subs and took care of everything. I barely ever had to go there. But during this issue, it wasn’t a contractor connection, it was like working with the town and she was so well connected because she had done so many deals in that area that it wasn’t like it was one of her clients that used to work with somebody in there. But just having those connections can be so valuable to make your deal go through. And I think that is a huge benefit to working with an agent who is investor friendly and has experience doing a lot of deals because of those connections they have.

Tony:
Yeah, Ash, great example of the power of a good agent. So again, if you guys, ricky’s biggerpockets.com/agent finder, best place to go once you’ve got your team built out. The next step, I think we’re on step number five now, right? So step number five is building out your buy box and then actually analyzing your numbers. So I guess before we even get into the nitty gritty here, just to quickly define what your buy box is, your buy box is the specific type of property and location of property that you’re searching for to help you achieve the goals that you’ve set out to become a real estate investor. So I’ll give you guys a quick example. When we made the decision to buy our first hotel, we made the buy a box of we want a property that’s between the purchase price of 1 million to $3 million value add opportunity, meaning we needed an opportunity to go in there rehab and increase the value.
We only wanted to focus on either vacation markets or urban markets. We didn’t want suburban or rural, and we wanted something that offered seller financing, that was our type buy box. And then it became so much easier to filter through all the different opportunities we were seeing to say, does it match or does it not match? Because then we didn’t waste our time with the stuff that wasn’t within our buy box. And we got really, really good at underwriting things that were within our buy box. And then taking it even back to the beginning of my journey, my buy box, when I very, very first started, I wanted a single family home in the 7 11 0 5 or 7 11 0 4 zip codes in Shreveport, Louisiana, single story. And I think I wanted to build 1950s or later, nothing before 1950s with a value add opportunity. And my very first deal was at the three bedroom single story, home value add, 1954 build and the 7 11 0 5 zip code. So the better you get it defined on your buy box, the easier it becomes to really scale up the property identification and the property analysis. I dunno, what are your buy boxes looking like or how have they maybe evolved? What would it look like for you?

Ashley:
Well, actually I created a buy box worksheet. You can go to biggerpockets.com, Ricky Resource, and it’s a template and it basically asks you questions as to everything you should be looking at when building out your buy box. Do you want a pool? Do you want a garage? Do you want an HOA, do you want how many bedrooms, how many bath? What type of building material do you want the property to be constructed of? Things like that. And I know you guys are probably so sick of us mentioning different links you can go to on BiggerPockets, but all of this stuff is free. All of this is free that you’re mentioning. We’re not trying to sell anything, but that’s another link is biggerpockets.com/rookie resource, and it’s a buy box template and you can go ahead and just click on it, download it, and then fill out that information to help guide you.
So for me, my buy box right now is, the next property I’m going to do is I’m going to do another flip and it’s going to be a starter home is basically my buy box. So I have three little towns that I’m searching in and it has to have a minimum of three bedrooms and a max of five bedrooms. So not super big wiggle room there at least two bathrooms to full bathrooms, and it has to be on an acre, at least an acre for these towns that I’m investing in. That’s where true value add is having that little bit of acreage. So those are a couple of different things that you should be looking at. I don’t want anything with a pool. I don’t want to have to make sure the pool is working. I don’t want to have to do updates and repairs to a pool. So different things like that. The more detailed you get, the slimmer your funnel will get to be. And yes, you’ll have less deals to analyze, but at least you’ll only be analyzing the deals that you really, really want.

Tony:
And for all the rickeys that are listening, you might be asking, well, how do I know what my buy box should be? And a lot of it’s you asking the questions or maybe answering the questions that we’ve kind of been talking about. Like Ashley said, what scope of project are you willing to take on? How comfortable are you going out of your own backyard? How much capital do you have to actually buy something? And as you start to answer these questions, your buy box kind of naturally starts to fill itself in. But that’s like the first piece of this equation, or at least the first piece of this fifth step. But once you have your buy box, the second piece is to then start finding properties that fit within your buy box and running the numbers on those deals. I think the analysis piece is one step where a lot of rookies make mistakes both on, they don’t analyze enough and they just see a property that looks nice and a nice area and they assume, okay, well if it looks nice and it’s a great area, it must be a great deal.
That is not how you analyze a property. You want to make sure that you have as much cold hard facts about the potential revenue on that property, the potential expenses on that property, and the potential profits on that property to see does this actually align with whatever return expectations I have for my real estate business? So making sure that you’re going through the process of correctly analyzing the deal. Now the flip side of that is true as well, where we’ve seen some rookies who maybe go too far to the extreme and they overanalyze and they get second analysis paralysis and they never buy anything because they feel like they don’t have enough data. So you got to find your sweet spot on that spectrum of not analyzing at all and being frozen in analysis paralysis to be able to find the deals that you’re confident enough in to actually move forward.
And I just think the last thing I’ll add on the analysis part is that there’s always risk in real estate investing. There is no real estate deal that it’s going to give you a guaranteed return. If you want a guaranteed return, you have to go buy a government bond, which I don’t know what bonds are paying these days, but a couple of percentages, percentage points. So just know there’s always risk. The goal to eliminate the risk in real estate investing, the goal is to build your confidence as high as you can, and once you feel confident in the deal, that’s when you know it’s sounded pull the trigger.

Ashley:
Okay, you guys, welcome back. If you haven’t already, make sure you are subscribed to the real estate Rookie YouTube channel. Okay, so next we’re going to be going over making an offer and what to do once you’re under contract. So there’s so many different ways to make an offer. If you’re using a real estate agent, they will definitely help you guide you through this process. But once you get under contract, there’s different things that you need to do as soon as you’re under contract. But Tony, let’s go over making an offer. What are some of the things as an investor that we need to consider when making an offer? We’ve done our deal analysis, we know what we can make the deal work for at what purchase price, what are the next steps from there to actually submit your offer?

Tony:
Yeah, I think first, and this is just mindset, is that the asking price, the listed price of a property is simply a suggestion and we have no idea what is going on in the mind of the seller, and maybe they’re much more willing to accept a number that’s lower than what they’ve initially listed it for. I feel like most people when they go to sell a property, understand there’s some form of negotiation in that. So typically they’re not just going to list it at their rock bottom price. They usually have a little bit of wiggle room there. So I see a lot of rookies who kind of get caught up because they’re like, oh, well, they’re asking this and the deal just kind of doesn’t make sense there, but the question isn’t, what did they list it at? It’s like, Hey, what number makes the most sense for you?

Ashley:
Yeah, I’m honestly one of those people right now. I’m trying to sell this property that I had bought, kind of held onto it and now just want to unload it, not doing anything with it anymore, and I would take a lower offer than what it’s sitting at right now too. So you never know.

Tony:
You find the right seller at the right time. When we bought our hotel in Utah, I don’t recall how long the property had been listed, but enlisted for a while, well over, I think they had initial lists for close to 2 million, and we bought it for just under a million bucks, same property, but it just sat long enough, the pain was strong enough for the sellers. They said, okay, cool. Hey, we just want to get this off our hands. So just from a mindset perspective, actually, I think there’s a lot of value in treating the listing price as a suggestion and always basing your numbers off of how does this deal make sense for me?

Ashley:
And then too, when you’re making your offer, you don’t have to make just one offer. I like to submit multiple offers. So the seller is getting the decision, which when people get to make a decision, they feel happy. That makes them, instead of getting something and like, oh, well you’re offering this, I’m going to counter it this so that I am getting what I want. That weird mindset thing of somebody wanting to have control of the situation, you give them two, you give them three offers, let them select it in their hands, they’re getting to choose. So one could be conventional financing, one could be seller financing, and one could be an all cash offer. So my all cash is going to be the lowest offer. I’m going to give you $80,000, do loan financing. I’m going to give you a hundred thousand dollars, you do seller financing, I’ll give you $115,000 as the purchase price.
And you can tailor up these different contracts, these different offers as to what your terms are going to be for each. But you could still have the same purchase price, but maybe change the contingency like, I’m willing to pay this amount, and on this one I’m willing to close on the property in this date, but I want seller credits, so I’ll close sooner, but I want $10,000 in seller credits. Then your other one could just be we’ll close whenever or whatever it may be, and you don’t have to pay me any seller credits. So there’s different things that you can negotiate rather than just the purchase price of the property too, to make it more appealing.

Tony:
We did an episode recently with Jay Scott, episode 525 where we talked about negotiating tips and tactics for real estate. So again, if you guys want a full deep dive on real estate negotiating episode 5 25 with Jay Scott. But I guess just one more thing to add to what you said, Ashley, I think when we think about negotiating real estate, there’s a few things, and you touched on a few of them, but just to clearly articulate it for the listeners, you have the purchase price, which is what I think most people think about when it comes to negotiating real estate, but that’s just one lever you can pull in addition to your listing price, there are things like if you’re doing a traditional real estate transaction, it’s like, Hey, what contingencies am I going to add? And maybe you can make your offer more competitive by reducing the number of contingencies.
Some of the common ones are you have a due diligence period, it’s like an inspection contingency. You have a financing contingency. Those are two of the most common ones. Sometimes if you’re in certain markets, you might have a sword type plumbing type thing, whatever it may be. But what contingencies are you including and which ones can you maybe not include to make your offer more competitive? We’ve heard some interesting stories from folks in the rookie podcast as well. People who were like, Hey, all I need is help moving. If you can help me move, I’ll give you a really good deal, right? And that’s something that’s so out of the box that you would never think would impact the ability to get the deal done, but the more you know about the seller’s motivations, the easier it becomes for you to solve that problem. So the point here is that there are more things to negotiate than just the listing price, and the more questions you ask, the better job you can do at providing the best offer to the seller.

Ashley:
So now that you’re under contract of the property, say you did your inspection, you went past through all the contingencies, and just a little side note is that I highly recommend if you don’t know anything about construction or rehabbing a property, and this is a property that needs work or maybe it doesn’t, maybe it is being sold as turnkey and in perfect condition, but you don’t know things to look for. I would highly, highly suggest getting the inspection done. Don’t skip that because there could be issues that you don’t even know. And when you’re vetting an inspector, make sure there’s certain things that they are going to do for you. I used an inspector for a long time and I didn’t even realize that there was way more capabilities until I went to a different market and used a different inspector and I was like, oh my gosh, taking a tool to the wall to make sure every wall was insulated.
My other inspector had never done that before. So little different things like that to make sure when you’re interviewing inspectors, what is their full scope? What are they actually going to give you? So once you’re under contract on the property, there’s other things that you need to do. You need to get your insurance in place, you need to switch the utilities into your name for your closing date. If this is a rental property for especially short-term rental or long-term rental, and I guess even midterm rental is setting up your systems of processes for the day that you close. So are there already tenants in place? If it’s a short-term rental, are there already bookings in place? Do you need to set up your bookings? Do you need to order furnishings? Do you need to hire a property manager? So start thinking about it gets so exciting when your offer is accepted and you’re under contract, but the work doesn’t stop there. That’s where the real work begins. And then you close on the property and it’s like, yay, I closed. But now you have to put all those processes in place that you worked on while you were under contract, and that’s when starts to take off for you and is exciting when you have that first deal in place. But you need to really focus on building out what is your business for this property and how are you going to asset manage it? How are you going to operate this property?

Tony:
You hit on so many good things, Ashley, that I think a lot of rookies don’t realize go into being a successful real estate investor. But I think that the main takeaway from what you said is that we have to approach even our first real estate investment as a business. And I think if we can just take off the hat of over just real estate investors to putting on the hat of we are entrepreneurs and business owners who just happen to be in the business of real estate, it gives you a slightly different perspective on how to approach even that very first deal because Ash and I have both gone through the growing pains of scaling a portfolio ineffectively to then having to go back and kind of rebuild it from the ground up. And it’s so much easier if you just take the time to do it the right way.
So everything actually said about having the systems, the processes, everything from making sure you turn on the utilities and turning ’em off. Those are the things that’ll save you headache as your portfolio continues to scale. I think the only other thing that I’d add to this is the goal is to get the first deal done, and hopefully you’ve done that, but also think about how you can leverage that first deal to get to your next deal. And I’ll give a really quick example, but let’s say that you’re able to save 500 bucks a month from your day job. That’s 6,000 bucks a year, and say you’ve got a starting pile of cash of about 50,000 bucks. So you’ve got 50,000 to start with $6,000 per year that you’re able to save. You take that 50,000 go out and buy a property and say you’re able to get, you’re doing rent by the room and you get a 30% return. What is that 15,000 bucks a year that you’ll get back on top of the $6,000 per month or $6,000 per year that you’re saving like two and a half years. You’ve got another 50 grand, now you’ve got two properties kicking off 15,000 bucks per month. So you can see how it starts to snowball. So one property gets you a lot further when you recycle those profits back into the business. You can go from one property to two properties to five in a relatively short period of time.

Ashley:
Well, thank you guys so much for joining us for this episode of The Ultimate Guide to Investing in 2025. I’m Ashley. And he’s Tony. And if you guys aren’t already following our new Instagram account, make sure to go check it out at BiggerPockets Rookie you’re watching on YouTube. Make sure you let us know in the comments what you want to learn or investing in 2025. Thanks so much for joining us. We’ll see you guys next time.

 

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Property management can make or break your real estate portfolio, and most new investors don’t know where to start. Do you hire a property manager or self-manage your rental(s)? How do you know a property manager will ensure your rental is performing instead of just collecting a monthly fee? Should you use a local property management company or a national chain?

The real question: who will make YOU more money and keep your rental on track with your goals?

Want to spot an average property manager vs. one that builds your wealth? Follow Selali Kalevor’s advice. He’s not only a property manager himself but an “upside” investor as well, who knows what it takes to make not only his clients’ properties perform but also his own. He shares the key questions to ask ANY property manager and must-know tips for self-managing rentals.

Plus, Dave and Selali describe the one thing that makes a property manager a massive value to rental property investors, and if your manager can’t do this, you might as well find a new one. 

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave:
Would hiring a property manager cost you too much money or would it actually make you more money? Today I’m going to talk to a real property manager for inside information on who needs a property manager, how to ensure your property manager is working towards your goals as an investor, and which skills even self-managing landlords can use to increase their rents and reduce tenant turnover. Hey everyone, it’s Dave. I’m the head of real estate investing here at BiggerPockets where we teach people how to achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. And on this show I’m going to help shed some light on an area that can feel like a bit of a mystery box for some investors. Property management. The question of whether you need to hire a property manager can generate a lot of strong opinions on both sides. So I want to go right to the source and talk to someone inside the business who can give us some straight talk.
Selali Kalevor is joining us on the show to do just that. He’s a property manager in the Seattle area and is also a real estate investor himself. He’s even worked in a couple other areas of the real estate industry, so he’s really seen the value of a great property manager from a bunch of different angles. And today I’m going to ask Sali, which vetting questions will reveal if a property manager can actually execute on your business plan as an investor. The conversations you need to have with your property manager to maximize performance and which professional property management techniques and tricks you can probably learn yourself. And just as a reminder before we start the conversation, if you’re happen to be looking for a property manager, BiggerPockets can help you find one, just go to biggerpockets.com/management and you can find top rated professionals in the space. I’ve actually found property managers myself this way. It’s a great tool. With that, let’s get into my conversation with Sali Cavo Sali, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thank you for being here.

Selali Kalevor:
Thank you for having me Dave. It’s a pleasure.

Dave:
So tell us a little bit about yourself. How are you involved in the real estate investing industry?

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely entry into the real estate world. I actually have a background in finance and investments circa middle school. I watched The Pursuit of Happiness, if you’ve heard of that movie, and I was
Motivated to become a stockbroker. So at my earliest opportunity in my early twenties earned my stockbrokers and an investment advisor’s license, and within a few years I had an itch for more ownership being more hands-on and I couldn’t really put my finger on what I was looking for. But ultimately that spurred into a loan signing agency circa 2019, which of course, as you can imagine with Covid interest rates exploded exponentially and through thousands of real estate transactions and settlement statements, I was able to really see the impact of what real estate investing could do for your financial future. So I became fully sold, started my investing journey in the early 2020s, and then decided I needed to partake in a new chapter of my life in property management here Q1 2024.

Dave:
Wow, that’s a pretty interesting, and it’s definitely not a common path that we hear. We do hear people go from corporate life to investing, but I’m curious about the property management side and why you’re scaling that particular business. But before we do, so what kind of investing have you done since you got the itch?

Selali Kalevor:
As of right now, I’m currently renting midterm and short term with the objective of converting into long-term rentals. So two parcels, very similar quarter acre parcels, three bedroom, one bath, about three hours south of us here in Seattle and Vancouver, Washington. Once we can get some more preferable interest rates, looking to get those refinanced down, pull out some equity and due to some zoning changes, it looks like we can add two ADUs on the quarter acre parcels. So we’re hopefully going to see some large appreciation here in the next couple of years.

Dave:
Awesome. I mean this is a perfect example of what we’ve been calling on the show recently, Sali Upside Deals when you can find opportunities right now that are good, like you said, you’re turning ’em using them as short term midterm rentals to service the debt carry these properties because you’re looking forward to some big upside one if and when interest rates come down, but two zoning upside, it sounds like it’s going to allow you to turn it from, sounds like two units to potentially up to six units.

Selali Kalevor:
You got it.

Dave:
Awesome. Okay, so that’s what you’re doing on the investment side, but I understand that you’re sort of scaling a property management business. Is that here in Seattle?

Selali Kalevor:
That is correct. So currently I’m working with Real Property Management. It’s a franchise development property management company. It’s national. We have more than 300 locations owned by small business owners throughout the nation. You have currently just over 500 homes. Wow. Looking to scale moving into small commercial space as well. So hopefully we can get to a thousand units here in the next three years. That’s one of our loftier goals.

Dave:
This seems like a pretty big change from being a stockbroker. What about this business was appealing to you?

Selali Kalevor:
So ultimately having a loan signing business was nice and all, but I realized through having discussions with real estate investors, buyers and sellers, the true outcomes of owning real estate, seeing people make massive appreciation on their properties by redeveloping them, owning properties for 10, 20, 30 years, cashing out their properties to reinvest in dream homes or reinvesting in apartment complexes. I’ve seen thousands of different opportunities as a loan signing agent working here in Seattle. So that came for me to realize, wait a minute, this is very impactful, especially during covid, we’re seeing, especially in the Seattle area, appreciation of 20, 25% year over year. So when I’m seeing on paper the outcomes of these deals, being able to walk inside a lot of these constructions and seeing them from the beginning of purchase and then maybe six months later becomes a lovely rental in the community. So seeing those changes really was a big motivator for me in making a pivot.

Dave:
Awesome. So I want to help our audience understand some of the pros and cons of property management. A lot of folks I believe start by self-managing, but in this day and age, I think more and more people are looking at out of state or long distance investing to find places that cashflow or maybe are more affordable but are a little hesitant about the property management piece. It feels like a sticking point for a lot of folks. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about what are the big variables and factors that investors should think about when considering hiring a third party property manager?

Selali Kalevor:
It starts with asking yourself a few questions. First few questions I would ask would just be threefold. Number one, what is your risk tolerance? Number two, what is the opportunity cost of time to manage the rental yourself? The average D iyer is going to spend about 40 to 70 hours a year managing their property. You can definitely do it or you could reinvest that opportunity cost potentially in the index stock market and self-education in your work, in your family. So these are a few questions that I would ask would be focusing on the macro goals. What is your short-term, long-term midterm goals? What’s your risk tolerance, what’s your opportunity cost? And it just starts with why.

Dave:
That’s great advice and I think it’s the same thing that we talk about on figuring out what kind of deals you want to buy or market you want to select it. Really there’s no shortcut to thinking and sort of being a little bit introspective and thinking about what you really want and that has to be the basis of your search for really anything in this industry, whether it’s deals, markets, or it sounds like property managers, but sali, how do you know who to believe? Because I would imagine if I go up to someone and say, Hey, my goal is to rent this out for $5,000 in a month, most people are going to be like, yeah, I got that. So how do you check their actual ability to execute rather than just be a good salesperson?

Selali Kalevor:
Personally? One thing I use just in my life in general when I’m looking at competent professionals is how granular can they be about describing the success that they expect they can achieve for you? To your point, if you say, Hey sala, I need you to rent out my property in Redmond for $5,000 a month. I say I can do that. Or I could say, Hey, lemme take a look at a few comparables not only on market but those that are within our own portfolio and I’m going to say, Hey, specifically Dave, here’s one property that’s a quarter mile away from you that rented out leased out at $5,000 a month here in June, 2024. I’m going to say, Hey, we also have a about three blocks away from you internally in our portfolio, similar square footage, beds and bathrooms that we rented out within 45 days for this price. Now we can make at least an estimated judgment that if we’ve done it before, we can do it again. So the key is how realistic is it that I can achieve this goal and how detailed can this person be about their ability to execute on that goal?

Dave:
That’s really helpful. I think that the level of specificity is a really good advice. I’ve also found that people who say no and are more vocal about the things they can’t do tend to be the people who are a little bit more reliable and trustworthy. So if you throw out a number and they say, no, that’s not realistic, I actually want to work with that person, even if they’re saying, I can’t achieve your goal, but it’s because your goal is just not realistic in the market and I’m not going to promise you something that I can’t deliver on. And maybe they share some anecdotes or stories about other times that they tried to list something for too high and it either got a bad tenant or sat on the market too long. So I think those types of things are really important to people in evaluating it.
So Sali, I am curious to hear more about why you went with a franchise and how our audience can evaluate small versus medium versus large national style property managers. But first we have to take a quick break before we hear from our sponsors. I want to remind everyone that BP Con, the BiggerPockets conference is back in 2025 and this year we are heading to Las Vegas beginning at February 3rd. So already tickets are on sale for early bird pricing where you get a hundred dollars off your tickets for a great opportunity to build your network, be among like-minded investors, hear from some of the best brightest names in the industry and have a lot of fun. Honestly, BP Con is a great time. I look forward to it every single year. If you want to grab your early bird ticket, just head to biggerpockets.com/conference. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here with Sali Cavo and we are talking property management. Before the break, we were talking about how to vet a property manager just in your one-on-one conversations, but I want to turn the conversation sali to a bit more about the profile of companies. What are the pros and cons of different styles and scales of property management companies?

Selali Kalevor:
Me personally, I believe the key is relationship management. One big component of identifying a mutually beneficial property manager to work with is realistically how well do you like them, right?

Dave:
Yes,

Selali Kalevor:
Totally. It seems

Dave:
Very simple. Yes, I totally agree with

Selali Kalevor:
You. Yeah. Do you like them? There’s clients that I golf with. There’s clients that I’ll sit out after work three hours to talk about cashflow strategies, redevelopment strategies. I believe the key, it really is the relationship, right? How well does that person going to work with specifically know your goals? Why do you own the property? What is the five-year plan? What’s the 10 year plan? Are we looking at an appreciation play, a cashflow play a tax minimization play? Do we have other parties involved in this deal, business partners, trustees? Are we looking to exchange this property into a potential small commercial asset in the next five years? Is the interest rate environment a consideration? These are insightful questions that I think are significantly more important than the early questions a lot of people like to ask specifically in regards to pricing just because if you look around the blocks in Seattle, especially on the west side, you can see different constructions, different years and to be able to effectively manage that just takes setting expectations and knowing the goals of both the tenants and the owners and being ultimately just very transparent.

Dave:
That’s the best advice. I’m so happy you said that. The most underrated thing is just like, do you get along with this person? Because real estate, it’s not complicated, but there are inevitably challenges you’re going to have these times when unfortunately someone doesn’t pay or something breaks and it’s the middle of a snowstorm and your heat goes out. These are stressful scenarios and you want to be working with someone who’s going to have a similar approach to this to you. You don’t want someone who’s going to get overly flustered or not pay attention. You want someone who’s going to treat these scenarios in a way that you’re comfortable with and sometimes with a property manager, you’re going to have to have uncomfortable conversations, which is true of any business, any colleague that you trust. Sometimes you have to have a hard, tough conversation and being with someone that you actually like you want to hang out with and that you have mutual respect for, I think is just an absolutely vital part of the vetting process.
So I have two more questions I want to ask you about this sali, and the first one is about size because I totally agree the personal thing is really important. The other thing though is in any one market that I invest in, I’m a small fish. I don’t have a lot hundreds or thousands of properties. And so I’ve found sometimes that if I go to a property manager that has thousands and thousands of units, they’re very professional, they often have better systems in place, but I’m just so low down on their priority list that it doesn’t make me feel great and it’s not on them. If they have a client that has 500 units, they should probably service that person first. That’s what I would do if I was in their position. But I’ve found personally more success finding people who are at a similar proportionate scale where it’s like I’m kind of small and trying to grow and I find a property manager who’s small and start trying to grow, and that creates this mutual incentive and a mutual alignment about where we’re trying to go with our respective businesses. I’m curious what you think about that. If you notice something similar, feel free to disagree.

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely. So to that point from a national standpoint in the specifically the residential property management world, do the diversity of expectations is quite difficult to deliver on all fronts, especially for landlords. What do I mean by that? We’ve seen a lot of private equity entrances into property management as well, and what that means is we’re typically going to have an alignment with shareholder interests, profit motives for example. So what that means is essentially how do we drive up margins, drive down costs? Now, the reason I’m very big on the relationship aspect of things is I know to an extent the 30 year plan of most of my clients that want to hold long-term, Hey, I want to give this property off to my child. Hopefully in the next 20 years I’m using this property to potentially 10 31 exchange into a different MSA. So one thing that’s very hard to track on a larger scale, just in my personal opinion, is those specific goals.
Hey Dave, why do you own these properties in Denver? I’m very curious because I’m the type of guy, reach out to your CPA and financial advisor and see how we can work together. These are specific services that a property manager may not be able to charge you for Dave, but they may be motivated to go out of their way to help you because they know you personally. They’ve shaken your hand, they’ve looked you in the eyes. So on a smaller scale, I like to work with property managers who have a footprint of about 25 to 30 miles when we’re looking at least specific to our metro here in Seattle because that allows us to be able to drive to all of our properties, meet our owners, meet our tenants, and be very personable at scale. That’s quite difficult to replicate. So the last point I’ll make is a lot of folks like to ask, how many properties do you manage or how many properties do each of your property managers manage? I would flip that question to ask more specifically, how happy are the clients that the property manager is managing? We are big on Google reviews. We try to keep at least a 4.95 star rating and I would urge investors to look specifically for landlord reviews, investor reviews and tenant reviews, right? Anybody who’s able to make all three parties happy, I would say gives you a strong chance of achieving your goals and making you happy as well.

Dave:
That’s very good advice. The way I sort of look at running a rental property business is that there’s two different sets of tasks that need to be done. One I would say is the day-to-day operations management, like talking to the tenants, leasing out, handling maintenance requests. That’s what most people call property management, that sort of thing. But perhaps the more important part is what people in finance or in other types of asset classes would call management, right? Or you hear that term talked about a lot in commercial, which is like, what is the best way to operate this property as a business? Do we do a renovation? Are we going to add an A DU? When’s the right time to buy and sell? And for me, basically one of the reasons I took so long to hire property managers is because I just didn’t feel like I could find someone who could help me with that second part. There are more people who can do the property management day-to-day stuff. I find it very difficult to find people who can help you think like an owner and not just do the thing right in front of them, but take this bigger, longer term view of your asset and be like, how are we going to maximize this piece of land, this property, this business for 20 years? So I’m curious what you think about this sali, but we do have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.
Welcome back everyone. I am here with Ali and we are talking about property management. Before the break, I was about to ask Ali what he thought about sort of the day-to-day operation part of property management versus the asset management piece. And I was hoping he could give us some guidance on how to think through and maybe not just screen property managers for the asset management piece, but how as an investor it’s also your job to effectively communicate your goals and desires. So Sali, maybe you can help us understand how to build that sort of secondary and at least in my opinion, more important part of the relationship between investor and property manager.

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely. This is actually a bit home for me. I’m definitely the finance and numbers nerd. I love that conversation about how an asset performs. As a matter of fact, we just had a discussion as a team last month with a commercial apartment owner who was a DIYer. It’s hard to say exactly when you need a property manager, but this individual is self managing more than 30 units by himself in a singular apartment.
So he reached out, he said, Hey Sali, I believe I may need a bit of help. It doesn’t seem like I’m performing as well as I should. So I said, Hey Mr. Client, your carrying occupancy is 77% stabilized occupancy is 93% in our area. You’re losing about $185,000 a year in vacancy. Our charge to you would be 90,000. You’d be able to distribute an additional a hundred thousand dollars a year in income by using professional management, right? When we talk about opportunity costs, and this was a very sharp individual owned a law firm, retired and said, I’m going to diversify my income in the stock market and real estate and I have enough cash to buy an apartment complex and has been self-managing, but he’s losing almost $200,000 a year due to self-managing this asset. So when we kind of break first principles thinking, why are we doing what we’re doing?
Alright, I bought an asset, a commercial asset of which I’m using to generate income for myself. How do I maximize the income of this asset? Well, you can do it yourself and try and save a few dollars, but you may end up losing a lot more than hiring a professional to get you that extra income. So I could speak to you for hours upon hours about asset management. I would say that’s something I’m very passionate about as well, but I try to be very efficient with my conversations, focus on goals. Maybe we talk about that room that we want to keep purple because we raise one of our children in that room and is very sentimental. Or I’m speaking to Dave who has multiple properties looking for ways in which we can maximize appreciation, maybe exchange them, increase cash flows, redevelop at adu. So you have to be versatile. My one key to anybody who’s looking for a property manager that may be more adept in the numbers is to really investigate their competence, their granularity and execution will indicate their conviction in getting you that outcome.

Dave:
I find that there’s just kind of this philosophical alignment or conversation that has to happen. I was driving around with one of my property managers not that long ago. He’s just sort of telling me about one of the properties and saying, oh, this thing came up. Do you want to handle it? I was like, something for a hundred dollars. And I was like, man, you don’t need to ask me about that. Just do what you think is best. And he was saying, most owners, they beat me up if I spend 50 bucks or 25 bucks to just handle something. And I was just like, man, I am trying to own this asset for 20 years. Don’t worry about $50 if it’s going to help maintain the property, keep the tenants happy, make it safe, make it comfortable, just spend the money. So we kind of had this just philosophical conversation and I think we left it him understanding me just a lot better and what I was trying to accomplish and he could now better manage my properties.
Whereas there are people who just want to know about every $10 that goes out of the door. And again, it goes to this idea of finding someone who you like but also has and can execute on the vision that you’re trying to enact. The other thing here that you just mentioned that I think is so important is I get the idea that many people don’t want to hire a property manager because it’s expensive. I started by self-managing and I think it’s a great way to start for a lot of people, but I do recommend people really do the math on that because it is not as cut and dry as most people think it is that you hire a priority manager, you automatically make less money because that’s only true if you’re a good property manager. And I’ve definitely been guilty of being a bad property manager at some points just because you get busy and things come up and you don’t handle things as efficiently as a professional might or you’re not staying on top of your rent. So really want to echo what Sali said there about just really do the math and figure out if you’re being as efficient as possible.

Selali Kalevor:
I love that you mentioned that ultimately because in terms of your relationship with your property manager there, one thing I like to tease my clients with is ultimately are you looking for an advisor or an assistant, right? Because in the property management world, there is both.

Dave:
Oh man, I choose advisor all day long. I get these emails that it’s like, there is a dishwasher that broke. What do you want to do? It’s like, well, tell me what the options of what you would do. You do this all day long and I’m 99% of the time going to just say, go for it. You’re there. You saw what’s happening. Is it repairable? Do you need a replacement? How much is it going to be replaced? That kind of information upfront is really what makes it better, because otherwise, if I’m still making every decision, then it’s not really saving me time. I’d rather just self-manage, just like you said, it’s just having an assistant, not actually someone who’s helping guide your investing now for slowly, for people who do want to self-manage, which is totally a good strategy. Again, I did it myself for 10 years. Are there any tips you have for people that would allow them to be more efficient or to gain some of the efficiency that a professional property manager

Selali Kalevor:
Offers? As a personal investor as well? I’d say the internet is a plentiful resource to give you at least the how to do with platforms like BiggerPockets. Of course, you’re going to have a lot of the free resources you need to get, call it 90 to 99% there. This is definitely a doable process for yourself, but do you have the resources to commit? Is this a sensible component of your mental real estate to allocate? Should you invest this time in doing leasing, doing showings, doing tenant communications, doing maintenance, doing rent ready prep, navigating through contractors? If you’re going to spend anywhere from, call it 30 to 70 hours a year on this property, is it truly worth your time? Break down your W2 income or your 10 99 income, what’s your hourly rate? So I would say be realistic with yourself and say, Hey, is this something that may better yet be something I can delegate as another vehicle of my financial independence? Because you ask yourself, why do you hire a financial advisor or a CPA or attorney? These are all vehicles of helping you get to financial freedom. So if that is your primary goal, it is about delegation, delegate the duties that are not necessarily the best or most advantageous use of your time.

Dave:
This is the whole game, right? It’s just figuring out where you should be spending your time and how to offload it. And that is one of the things that’s just, it is easier said than done. I know it sounds easy, like, oh, just figure out what good at and then delegate everything else. It’s not that easy. So I just want to call that out to everyone. If you’re trying to figure that out, it’s hard to figure out where to spend your time and even when you figure out things that you’re perhaps not good at or maybe you just don’t enjoy, it’s still hard to find people to be able to do that. But that’s sort of the lifelong or career long journey of being investor is continuously optimizing that. So very glad you said that. Thank you. So Ali, before we get out of here, any other last thoughts on property management you think our audience should know?

Selali Kalevor:
I’d say get to know your local property managers, why they do business, what motivates them. But if I can give one takeaway to the audience, give a little bit of value, really focus on the why rather than how much. I have a lot of conversations on price to give you the easy answer. You’re going to pay eight to 10% monthly and 50% to a hundred percent of first month’s rent. That’s a meat and potatoes. I think the more important you want to ask yourself is why do I have this asset and who can help me get to a successful outcome in the next year, five years, 10 years? Because as you’re well aware, Dave, there’s hundreds of thousands of outcomes you can have with real estate. So focus on the why and then the who will come.

Dave:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Sali. This has been a great conversation. We really appreciate it.

Selali Kalevor:
Thank you, Dave. It’s been a pleasure.

Dave:
And thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate all you being here. And if you’re interested in working with great professional property managers like Sali, we have a tool on BiggerPockets where you can do that for free. I will put a link to our property manager finder in the show notes below, or you could just find it on biggerpockets.com as well. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. We’ll see you next time.

 

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • Crucial questions to ask a property manager to see if they’re worth the fee
  • Hiring a local vs. national property management company (and what to check before you hire them)
  • The type of “manager” that will make you more money with less stress 
  • Signs that you should (or shouldn’t) be managing your properties yourself 
  • The #1 most important factor when hiring a property manager
  • And So Much More!

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The “death march to FI” isn’t for everyone. If you’re tired of climbing the corporate ladder or lacking a sense of purpose at your W2 job, it’s not too late to escape the rat race and design the life you want, just like the “Financial Tortoise,” Tae Kim, did!

In this episode of “Life After FIRE,” Tae returns to the show to discuss his move from the corporate world to a job that gives him the freedom and flexibility to travel, spend more time with his family, and actually enjoy the journey to FIRE. For years, Tae was dead set on achieving his goal of becoming a chief financial officer (CFO), but as he approached the summit, he realized just how much freedom and control he was giving up. So, he started implementing a plan to quit and pursue entrepreneurship instead!

In four years, Tae went from making $0 on YouTube to over $250,000 per year. Today, he and his wife are comfortably coast FI, traveling the world, creating personal finance content, and continuing to save for retirement where they can. Stay tuned as Tae shares how he “reinvented” himself in his late 30s and the moment he realized he had “made it” on YouTube!

Mindy:
Hello, hello, hello my dear listeners, as you may or may not know, my husband Carl and I have a new YouTube series on the BiggerPockets money YouTube channel called Life After Fire. And as a very special bonus, we are going to be airing episodes here on the podcast on Wednesdays. Without further ado, let’s get into it. We are so excited to slow down today. We are joined by the financial tortoise Tae Kim, and we are so excited to chat through the lead up to Tay achieving financial independence and what life has looked like for him afterwards. Let’s get into it. Hi there. I’m Mindy Jensen,

Carl:
And I think I’m Carl Jensen.

Mindy:
You think this is the Mindy and Carl, he thinks on Life After Fire, where we talk about what happens after you reach financial independence.

Carl:
Why do we call the show Life After Fire?

Mindy:
Because we’re talking about and talking to people who are living their best life after reaching financial independence. We also want to shout out to our listeners who may have come to know this series as the Living a Fire Life series. We are changing the name of the series to Life After Fire. Unbeknownst to us, there was another creator named Justin who had started a blog with the same name. So if you are interested in following his story, please go check him out at Living a Fi Life. And he spells Fi, FIGH like hi, but with an F. Thank you so much for joining us today, Kim. How are you doing today?

Kim:
Well, thank you guys for having me.

Mindy:
I want to jump right into it and get a little bit of an overview of your story. What was your profession before you retired and how long did it take you to reach retirement once you discovered the concept of financial independence?

Kim:
I was a finance director for about 10 years, so this is in any corporation, pretty typical role. You have the finance department. So my role was financial forecast, projections, budgets. So in any company, whenever the budgeting season comes around, you have that guy that comes around and says, Hey, you can’t spend that. Or Hey, what are you projecting for your sales this year? Let’s see if we can increase that. So that was that pesky guy that used to go around everyone’s office and nobody was looking forward to having a meeting with me. So I did that for about 10 years before that. So I got my MBA and my pathway was I wanted to become a CFO one day. That was my aspiration coming out of business school. So that was the path that I went towards. I decided that I wanted to become an expert in financial projections, just budgeting and all of that stuff within the corporate world.
I did that for about 10 years, and then I think maybe about halfway through your goals change because your life circumstances change. So once my wife and I, we had kids, we started to give ourselves permission to ask, Hey, that initial plan that we set out when we’re 30, now that we’re in our mid thirties, we’re getting close to 40, has that changed? And for me, I think what I realized was it did change. And what I craved more wasn’t to reach the corner office, but I wanted more control. I wanted more flexibility with my life. So that’s when I got introduced into a lot of the FI concepts through Choose Fi, through BiggerPockets money, through just so many other great resources that are out there. And I had a good fortune meeting Carl at Chatauqua in UK back in 2019. At that point, we’ve been kind of following the FI principles of just living below our means, saving as much as we can.
So we were pushing ourselves at one point, saving half of our income. So essentially both of us were working, so try to live off of one income and save the other. So we were following those principles, I think right around 20 21, 20 20 when Covid hit. I think that’s when I started to get a little bit more itch to transition. So this is when I was also getting some exposure to the internet business world, the YouTube world, and I had this inclination to, Hey, maybe I can put my head in the lot and try to become a YouTuber or a personal finance YouTuber. So at that point, we hadn’t reached FI from a traditional perspective of 25 times our expenses. I would say we were Coast Fi and we had enough cushion to be able to take some time away if we wanted to. In discussion with Monica, who’s my wife, we decided that, hey, what’s the worst that can happen?
This thing doesn’t work out. And I just go back to what I did before. That’s a great place to be at. It’s the American dream. Both of us were well employed, we were able to fund our living. We weren’t financially struggling. So that was the American dream. We kind of mapped things out where we saved up about two years worth of cash, and we were doing that before, and essentially we said, Hey, I’ll give myself about two years to see if I can make this work, because we didn’t want to tap into our investments if we could. And then again, if worse came to happen, I would’ve taken a contract job or just gone back and gotten a full-time job. But I started a YouTube channel Financial Tortoise, and then it just kind of worked out. So then thankfully, I’m able to generate enough income that covers our family’s expenses. So I’ve at this point become an accidental digital nomad.

Mindy:
So I have a funny story about your YouTube channel. I had started seeing your name a lot, and at the same time, Carl and I had met up with a friend in Denver. His name is Roger. He’s a mutual friend of ours, and he said, oh, I’ve got a friend who’s got a YouTube channel. You should talk to him. And in my mind, I’m like a friend with a YouTube channel. I bet he’s going to be really awesome. And then it turns out he’s like, yeah, his name is Take Kim. He’s the financial tortoise. I’m like, I’ve been trying to get him on my show

Kim:
Now. Here I am.

Mindy:
This was actually a couple of years ago before you had been on the BiggerPockets Money podcast, but it was just so funny that he was like, I’ve got this friend with a YouTube channel. I’m like, okay, I bet that’s going to be great. Now we need to take a quick ad break. Dear listeners, we really want to hit a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube and we need your help while we take a quick ad break. You can go on over to youtube.com/biggerpockets money and make sure you’re subscribed to the channel. Stay tuned after a break for more. Welcome back to the show. What did the process of actually leaving your job look like? That’s something that I think a lot of people on the path are a little scared about.

Kim:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would say mean if I was to kind of put a pin on where that, I guess the percolating of thoughts, idea generation or even sparking the idea came about was probably five years before I left my job. And one of my big roles was to present our projections for the next quarter to the board members. And then in our board meeting, I would be sitting right next to our CFO. So I was the finance director. I had the team that we would run all the forecasts, make all the slides, and then she would be the one presenting the big numbers. And then if she had some questions about certain small numbers, she would reach over and ask me and I would be like, I point it out on the slides. And then I had this realization that I was like, oh my goodness, if I work really hard for the next 10 years and if I stay in this pathway, I would just move one seat over.
And then I would be sitting in her spot and I would be pointing at the finance director and be like, Hey. And I was like, is that what I want? So I think that was the first time where I asked myself, gave myself the permission to be like when I could see exactly clearly where my future was going to be for the next 10 years, I think in a way that kind of scared me. And I was like, Hmm, should I give myself the permission to imagine something else? And that’s where I think this idea of starting a YouTube channel was terrifying. I mean, I’m a middle-aged guy. I’m like, why am I start a YouTube channel? That’s what these young hip cool kids do, I think. So then that’s when the idea started generating, and that’s when I went to chatauqua and I think I got exposed to the financial independence concept and I was like, oh, okay, this could be a lever that could help me to take new chances and new risks in life, try new things, because it’s almost like you’re operating with a safety net.
It’s like, what’s the worst that can happen? I just go back to what I was doing. So then it was kind of like, let me try this thing, and then it’s not even if I fail in it, there’s nothing. There’s nothing wrong. I learned something new about myself from a financial perspective. This is where I think my wife and I, following a lot of the financial independence principles, we would look at our numbers and be like, I think we had worst case scenarios. We would say, okay, let’s say two years out we spent all of our cash and then we had to start tapping into our assets. What would the first one be? I think we can tap into this one first and then we would be like, dude, we have enough to last us for the next five, 10 years. We’ll be fine. And then again, we’re probably not going to pull that lever because being conservative, we’ll be like, we’ll probably go find something else to cover the gap to generate more income because we have career capital that we can leverage.
So I think when we mapped all those scenarios out, we’re like, only thing that’s holding me back is just my own fear, just the familiarity with the path that I am heading towards. And that was the other fear too, is this is all I knew. I came out of business school, every one of my friends are following these pathways in different functional areas. It could be marketing or finance or hr, but we’re all following this pathway. And for me to be like, I’m going to try something different, was kind of a new concept for me. So I think all those things percolate in my mind. And then I would say from start to finish, from the day I left, my job was about a five-year process, both mentally getting myself ready and then getting ourselves financially ready so that we had these kind of like, okay, what are the levers that we can pull as we go down this journey?

Carl:
You said a lot of very important things here, but I want to reiterate a couple of them. For one, it corrects me up that you had this ambition to become a CFO. So you were a very ambitious person. Like, oh, I ever wanted to do was stay in my Cuban code, but I was happy with that. So you wanted to be a CFO, and then you discovered financial independence and then you work your way into becoming a YouTube influencer, which cracks me up. But you said one line I think, which was super cool, you said I gave myself permission to imagine something else. I think this is so neat. The other thing you said is my worst case scenario was I could go back to whatever I was doing. I could go back to becoming, I would go back to being a finance director. On the other hand, the world is open to you that the possibilities are limitless and endless. So it’s okay if I fail. I’m just back to what I was doing before, which was still pretty great. You made a great career for yourself. On the other hand, I’m going to experiment and try things, which is super cool. I think if most people did that and just took that little leap that they would probably never go back to whatever they were doing before. Yeah, I think that’s super cool. When did you realize you had made it and you were not going to go back to becoming a finance director?

Kim:
Again, it was a hypothesis when I first started the YouTube journey. So I think I as in the process of learning about financial independence and the process of envisioning something new for myself, I think I was looking at a lot of different avenues and I landed on YouTube as this, I guess vehicle in which there’s a lot of traffic already coming in. And I think within the personal finance space, I mean, we all know there’s a lot of really smart bloggers within the personal finance space, people who can write about all the backend analysis that’s been done in the 4% rule, and they can explain it all in a written format really well. But I didn’t see a lot of that in the video world, in the YouTube world. So that’s where I was like, I don’t mind talking in front of the camera. Maybe this is something that I can kind of make a niche, but I knew it was going to take time.
So I kind of committed myself to saying, I’m going to make two videos a week, rain or shine, and then a lot of this is going to be a learning process because I just don’t know the algorithm. I don’t know how, I’ve never filmed myself ever before. I’ve never owned a camera so that I bought my camera literally in the same month that I left my job and then just learning how the thing worked. So then a lot of it was the learning process, but then after about two years, I would say, I think at that point I created 150 videos. That’s when I started to see some traction within YouTube where there was actually people watching, not just friends and family members, and then it was able to generate revenue, starting to generate some revenue. So I started to see some potential. So yeah, two year was kind of like, okay, I could see, it’s kind of like the Rubik’s Cube at first.
I don’t know what I’m doing. And after a little while you’re like, oh, I think I could see it. So when I started to see that pathway, I was like, all right, I’m going, this is head first. I’m doubling down on this. But again, that first two years, it was still a limbo. I think I was giving everything I could to the YouTube game. However, I never left my day job with any bridges burned actually, when I left, I gave a seven month notice. I hired my own replacement. A new team members kind of trained everybody. And then I always kept that back door open because I was like, well, there could be a chance that I might need to come back. So managing all my risks, and I didn’t really tell anybody what I was doing, but I think I wanted to make sure that if I ever needed to, I wanted that assurance.

Carl:
It’s pretty neat that you stuck with it for 150 videos. I wonder how many potential bloggers or how many potential YouTubers or podcasters or whatever did 10 and gave it up and all they had to do was give it a little bit more time and have a little bit more tenacity. One of my favorite quotes is Overnight success is usually proceeded by years of hard work or something like that. True. I think very, very few people do something and become immediately successful. There’s a lot of hard work to either build up the skills or to build up your audience or maybe to hit the algorithm. So kudos to you for sticking with it.

Kim:
I mean, I think that was the motivation. And the other motivation was like, I do not want to go back to what I was doing before I got to make this work. That was the thing I was in back of my mind. I kept the back door open, but I was like, this is only crack open. At the worst case scenario, it’s like break glass, only an emergency. I do not want to break the glass.

Mindy:
I love that mentality because that is how you succeed. You said, I’m going to make two videos per week, rain or shine. When Scott Trench and I were starting the BiggerPockets Money podcast, we reached out to Brandon Turner who had been doing the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast for so long. We’re like, what advice do you have? And he said, if you want to start a podcast, make an episode and release an episode every week for six months with no gaps ever, ever, ever. And I was like, oh, totally easy. And then there’s that one day, that one week when you’re like, oh, it’s Tuesday afternoon. I got to record something for Thursday’s release, but I also still have to have it edited and all these other things. And it takes tenacity, it takes commitment. And I like how you say, after 150 videos, I started to see traction.
All the people that are out there making 10 videos and giving up, it’s not an overnight thing. You’re never going to have overnight success. There’s that one kid that did the one thing and instantly it blew up. That’s already been used up. You’re not going to be able to do that. You have to do what sets you apart. You are, you have said this, I’m not calling you a middle-aged man because I’m older than you and I don’t consider myself, but you say you’re a middle-aged man who wants to watch me. Well, you know what? There’s a lot of other middle-aged people who want to learn from somebody who has some sort of background, some sort of credibility, I’m sorry, 25-year-old YouTubers who are life coaches. I don’t really take the same level of trust with what you’ve got to say versus take him who worked in corporate America finance for 10 years. I think that maybe a little bit more about finance and maybe that 25-year-old is some wunderkind who is going to just blow my mind with all this stuff. But there’s people that are watching them for different reasons, and there’s people that are watching you speak to people that they won’t speak to.

Kim:
Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that I realized about YouTube is that it is kind of becoming the new mainstream media, and then everyone is, my parents are who are in their seventies are watching YouTube, and there is a content about everything and anything you could think of. So it’s, I think it’s easy to get because of the algorithm. We only get served up certain type of content that might be more aligned to our watching habits. But then there’s so many other people out there with different interests in different age group, different life stages, and there is a need and desire for those kind of content. So it’s like, yeah, that’s been fascinating to me. I made one of the most interesting video I made mean not interesting. One of the most interesting insights I saw about YouTube Watch Habit was I made this video about backdoor Roth ira.
It was the most boring thing ever for 15 minutes. I’m literally all this guy’s backdoor Roth ira, let me kind of walk you through logging into my Vanguard account, and you click on this and then like, oh, you notice how you got to make sure you fund your traditional? And then I went through the whole thing for 20 minutes. I was like, I’m going to make this super long. And then to this day, there’s I think 300,000 views on it. People are watching how to do bto Roth ira. I’m like, it fascinates my mind. I’m like, who are these people? So there’s an audience for everything. Yeah, that’s what I realized. You just got to, like you said, you got to be consistent. You got to show up. You have to think about your audience. Just serve them. You don’t have to be like Mr. Beast. You don’t have to be like all fashion your let your personality shine, let your expertise shine. And there is an audience that will appreciate that

Mindy:
We have to take one final ad break, but we’ll be back with more after this. Thanks for sticking with us.

Carl:
8 billion people on Earth, I think, and probably most of those having access to the internet. There’s someone for everyone. You could probably have the most ridiculous channel in the world. You could have a thing about porcupines and purple porcupines.

Kim:
There’s an audience for that. Yeah.

Carl:
So I’m kind of curious, before you left work, did you have any ideas or thoughts of what life posts? And I want to say I don’t know, even though if retired is the right word, and I actually hate the word retired. It’s stupid. No one, if you look it up, it means to cease work, no one should cease work because work is where all our happiness and purpose and meaning comes from. We just have to do the right job of defining the work we want to do. So I’m not going to say retired. What I’m going to say is life post formal job. Did you have ideas in your head of what life would be like and has it been what you expected or different? And if so, how?

Kim:
Yeah, I think for me, and I think for a lot of people, it comes down to control, being able to control your life more. I think that was the biggest thing I realized I was craving was I had interest that I wanted to explore at work, but then the constraints, the job description of the work kept me in this box. There’s things I want to learn, things I want to explore, things I want to grow, but I’m only going to grow to the limit in which my job description allows me to. I think one of the exercises I actually did was before I left was if I could kind of envision what my ideal day, ideal week would look like, I kind of mapped it out, and I think that really helped. I was like, okay, I would be in full control of when I drop the kits off, I get to work from this time to this time.
I get to go work out at whatever time I want to. I get to pick up the kids. We can go have dinner. I think I mapped that out and that became my man. If I could do that, that would be amazing. Because to your point, Carl, I think work is very important. I think being productive, adding value, creating something growing I think is such an essential component. I think for me personally, if I didn’t have the YouTube channel where I have the ability to do cognitive work where I’m looking at a lot of data, synthesizing it and then packaging it and then sharing it to the world, I’m hoping that is helpful to the world. I don’t know. I feel like there would be this gap in my life, this vacancy. So I liked the idea that I have full control over my life.
So yeah, I mean, I think that was one of the biggest, biggest benefit. It wasn’t like aversion to work. It was more like, I want to control my life more. I want to control what I’m working on more. I want to pursue my interests and desires. If I want to read about this article, I want to go deep into this. I don’t want to go through the routine of having to write reports that no one’s going to read or synthesize data that no one really cares about. That didn’t really excite me that much. So I think that was the thing. I think that was the biggest thing, was the ability to have control over my life.

Carl:
Yeah, I think that’s so important. And one thought I frequently had is, I’ll turn it back on myself for a second. I actually liked what I did. I loved writing code. I liked the thoughtful aspect of it yourself in these puzzles, and I thought that was great. But then all the other stuff that goes along with it, you don’t have that many vacation weeks you have to work with. And for difficult people, you have to be there. You might have to be at a location, you might have to endure a commute. You’re going to be there for a certain number of hours. You might have to start at a certain time, and we’re starting to close. It’s all that stuff that goes around the job that, but I think a lot of us probably do our core work, and if we could do it on our own terms, which isn’t really realistic, but it’s an interesting thought exercise, if nothing else. So it goes back to exactly what you said, having control and having the autonomy. We’re all still doing work. We’re just doing it on our own terms with our own rules.

Kim:
And I feel like I would say if I’m comparing how much I’m working and the intensity, I feel like I’m working way more than I did before in my corporate job. And I think the intensity that I have, I feel like is a lot more, but it is self-motivated and self-driven. So then I’m like, I want to work on this, and then this is really interesting to me, but I feel like the amount in which I’m growing is at so much faster pace than when I was in my corporate job.

Mindy:
How many hours do you spend working now versus when you were working in your corporate job?

Kim:
So I think a typical 40 hours a week was in my previous job, but then the actual actual work. So I think this is the other thing I realized after kind of moving up the corporate ladder was I was spending less time on the work itself, and I think I was spending more time on the politics, and this is a joke around financial planning, financial forecasting. The accuracy of the forecast wasn’t as important as did everyone feel good about the numbers that we’re forecasting and projecting. So then I would spend more meetings before the final presentation, meeting with all the stakeholders, making them feel like they got their inputs in, they all feel good, so that by the time we get that final meeting, it’s not contentious that everyone’s like, oh yeah, the forecast looks good, whether it’s accurate, no one cares. Then next quarter, next board meeting.
So I think that was the other frustration I was feeling was the amount of time that we spent on trying to nail in these numbers wasn’t as much. Maybe some people enjoy the politics side of it. I personally, I think that was also what was getting to me after a little while was I felt like I was massaging egos more than actually digging into the analysis. So that’s one of the things I kind of really enjoy about the current YouTube job that I have in a way, is I get paid to just read books and articles all day and then synthesize. I get to delve into what I’m interested in and then be able to, in a way, I feel like every YouTube video I make is kind of a term paper that I’m writing. So then I get to produce the content I like, and then I get to really spend my energy on the things that I want to focus on. So I think that’s been the real satisfaction that I’ve been able to really enjoy with my new job.

Mindy:
In terms of annual spending, how much income is your YouTube channel generating?

Kim:
It’s a little flux right now on the road. So I’m talking to you guys from Bali, Indonesia, so it’s hard to say. I would say it ranges from low end to maybe 70,000 to maybe high end, 120,000. That’s the baseline expenses for family of four. In Europe, it was costing probably a little bit more, like 120,000 hundred 50,000 maybe even at times. And then here in Bali, Indonesia is maybe half of that. And then, yeah, YouTube channel. I would say my first year, top line revenue, I think it was, I’ll say the numbers. The first year I got zero. I think I made $0. Second year I made 16,000. That was a breakthrough year. I was like, oh, I’m making money online. This is crazy.

Mindy:
Look at how rich you are.

Kim:
I know. And then third year, I think I was maybe a hundred something thousand a little bit over. I think right now it’s around between two 50, 300,000. Yeah.

Mindy:
Okay. So it’s covering your expenses.

Kim:
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Mindy:
Even if you decide to travel around Europe,

Kim:
It does, thankfully. Yeah, it does. And then I think one of the benefits of traveling right now is that we get to have a little bit more flexibility on if the cost seems a little too high in one place, we can travel to a different place.

Mindy:
And then do you touch your investments, your retirement investments or your PHI money, or do you just live off of the YouTube stuff?

Kim:
Yeah, thankfully we haven’t had to. I mean, that was one of the levers that we had in our sequence of levers that we had to pull, but thankfully that we didn’t have to pull that. So we were able to, the first couple of years, my wife, she actually, she was a former nurse, so she went part-time and then that was enough to cover the first year and then plus our savings, and then we able to stretch it out to the second year. So thankfully, it’s just kind of like our cash position. All of that kind of worked out for the transition where my revenue started to generate enough income to cover our expenses.

Mindy:
Are you still saving for retirement or have you kind of stopped that?

Kim:
Yeah, I mean, so I have a solo 401k. I have an HSA because I have a high deductible healthcare plan. We still have a Roth IRA. So yeah, I try to put away, I wouldn’t say I’m maxing it. I mean the first 3, 2, 3 years, we weren’t maxing it out. But I think I’m trying to put in as much as I can based upon the sequence of what’s most optimal. So yes, the desire is, I can put away more down the line because I think the other part of the FI is I think as long as you maintain your lifestyle expenses, as long as you manage your lifestyle expenses, I mean you’re going to have extra income to be able to put away. So yeah, desire the goal we’ve been putting away and the desire is to put more away down the line.

Carl:
I think you’ve done a really good job building a great life, and I don’t see many people who fail in phi. I have seen a couple who have gone back to their jobs. They just can’t figure out anything to do with themselves, and I think that’s kind of sad. I think there’s a lack of imagination there, but you on the other hand, you’ve built a really cool life as we’re talking. You’re on the other side of the world showing your kids, you’re doing the world school and you’re giving them awesome experiences, so you’ve really built something cool. What advice would you give someone who’s about to reach financial independence but might be nervous or apprehensive about leaving work?

Kim:
Yeah, so I think there’s two parts to, I see when people are thinking about transitioning. I think there’s the financial part, and I feel like with most people who are interested in the financial independent space or FI space, I feel like that becomes a less, I don’t want to say important, but determinant. So I feel like, yeah, you should look at your finances to make sure that what are the levers that you can pull in order to design a lifestyle that could imagine your future differently? I think the second part is more of the identity and the emotion part. I think I spend more of my time doing that because if you asked five years before I left, my day job is like I had this identity built for myself. I went to business school on this pathway. When someone asked me, it’s like, what do you do?
That’s the first question we asked each other. I’m a finance director. I want to move up and I want to become a CFO one day. That’s kind of my aspiration. And you find satisfaction in that. You find a sense of purpose in that. And for me to be able to be like, okay, what do you do now? And then first couple years after I left my day job, that was hard emotionally, I think, because people would ask. It’s like, what do you do? It’s like, oh, I don’t know. I’m just a stay home dad. Or I was coaching my son’s soccer team. I was like, oh, I coach my son’s soccer team here and there. But then I was still struggling with that identity. But I feel like I would encourage people to be okay with that struggle because that is part of the process of reinventing and redefining ourselves that we’re not defined by the one identity of our career.
You will live multiple lives, especially in today’s world. Opportunities are a bound, and you don’t know what you don’t know. So I think it’s okay to struggle, I would say for me was the biggest thing was just giving myself the permission to be like, okay, if I’m not this, then what am I? I don’t know, but let me try. We don’t know what else is out there. So then I think that’s the other part is the last three to four years after I left my day job is being more comfortable without that prior corporate identity and then redefining myself. I call myself a financial YouTuber now, but five years from now, I’d probably be something else. And that’s okay. And that’s part of life, and I think we should get comfortable with that. I think the finances, the financial independence, the money, it’s like the superpower you have that enables you to do those things, to take chances in life that most other people would just dream about.

Mindy:
Tey, I want to thank you for your time today. This was so much fun. Let’s remind people where they can find you in the financial tortoise online.

Kim:
So I have a YouTube channel. You could find me if you just Google Financial Tortoise. So I try to post, right now I’m down to one video a week. That’s the template I’m maintaining. So you can see my videos there. I also, I just started a Instagram Instagram page, so if you want to see some of my personal travels. So I’m not doing any algorithm there, it’s just more just posting family pictures of us in Bali. So if you want to see some of that, you can go to my Instagram, which is just Instagram slash financial tortoise. But yeah, I mean, my main platform is a YouTube channel. And then if you want to learn about some pretty boring index fund strategies on how to build wealth slowly, you can find me there.

Mindy:
Awesome. Tey, thank you again for your time. This was a lot of fun. And if you’d like this video, please click the thumbs up and don’t forget to subscribe to this channel for more inspiring fire videos, just like Tate’s.

Carl:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Life After Fire. And with it, Mindy, and I say goodbye.

 

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How do the top 1% of Americans invest their money, and how do your investments compare? We’re breaking down the data, showing what the wealthiest Americans are invested in and how to copy their 1% portfolio so you can invest like the ultra-wealthy. To be in the top 1% of Americans, you must have at least eight figures. And while that’s a Fat FIRE number, most of us don’t need tens of millions to retire early. But copying some of the tactics of the top 1% could get you there faster.

One thing slingshots average Americans to the top 1%, and even the top 0.1%, but you don’t have to bank on this huge bet to get there. Surprisingly, the top 1% invests in assets that YOU already have access to, not elite-only investment opportunities or massive business deals. They’re invested in FAR more passive assets than you’d think, so you don’t HAVE to build a real estate portfolio to get there.

What gives you the best chance of hitting the top 1% in wealth? Maybe you don’t want to go that far—how do you get to the top 10%? Scott and Mindy share a few strategies that could skyrocket your net worth into the tens of millions—if you’re willing to do the work. Plus, they reveal where to park your money once you reach the top.

Mindy:
Today we are pulling back the curtain on something many people wonder about, but rarely get to see how the ultra wealthy actually invest their money. Not the sensationalized stories about crypto or tech billionaires, but the real data on how the top 1% allocate their investments might surprise you is that while the ultra wealthy do have access to investment opportunities that most of us don’t, many of their core strategies are actually things you could implement into your portfolio right now. Ready to hear how this might change your investment strategy. Let’s get into it. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my top 1% in my heart co-host Scott Trench.

Scott:
Oh, that’s very nice, Mindy. Likewise, and I would argue that we should be up there having invested so much time together on this podcast. Alright, BiggerPockets is a goal of creating 1 million millionaires, not just in the heart, but literally in your bank account and your net worth statement. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you’re starting. Alright, first things first. We’re going to be talking about how the top 1% of Americans invest their wealth and let’s clarify what we’re talking about with that top 1%. According to Kiplinger’s Wealth Report, to be in the top 1% of wealth in America, you need a net worth of about 11.6 million. That’s eight figures in wealth and the typical BiggerPockets money listener does not aspire at least.
So they tell us in surveys, no one would say no, of course, but does not aspire. The primary goal is not to generate eight figures in personal net worth and get to this fat fire or top 1% level of wealth. It’s more to get in this kind of one to $5 million range with 2.5 million as the sweet spot for many listeners, but by studying the top 1%, I think that may accelerate many folks’ journeys towards this and understand here’s how to get there. And of course if you overshoot, no one’s really going to be complaining about that and the optionality that even more excess wealth might bring into one’s life.

Mindy:
Absolutely. I agree, Scott, I am a little bummed to learn that I’m not in the 1%, but that’s okay. I’m still doing okay. I wouldn’t mind having $11 million, but I agree with you. I don’t think that’s where the majority of our listeners, by majority, I mean 99.999% of our listeners aren’t looking to build even $10 million in net worth. They’re looking to build enough so that they can comfortably live the life that they want. They can retire early if they choose. They can continue working if they choose, but without this pressure of, oh, I have to keep my job so that I can keep putting foot on the table, they’re looking to be comfortable. Scott, who do you think of when I say the top 1%? I already told you it’s not me.

Scott:
I think the top 1% is a executive at a large corporation who has earned a very large income for a long period of time, or a business owner or a real estate investor or an entrepreneur, I guess is also a business owner in that category, or someone with an incredibly high skill ceiling like an investment banker or an elite broker agent in there, a mortgage broker that has an item there or a fund manager. Those are the kinds of folks that I think are going to make up this list. What do you think?

Mindy:
I think our minds are so different. I go billionaire, I think of Charlie Munger, I think of Warren Buffett, I think of Peter Thiel. I don’t think of regular jobs. And Frank, on that same token, $11 million gets you into the 1% club. I thought you needed more zeros in order to get to the 1% club. So I was really surprised by this article.

Scott:
Let me also kind of walk some of that back, what I just said earlier. I think if you’re looking for the people who make this up, you’re also looking at people who are older 50 plus and have accumulated based on what I just described, 55 plus 50, 55 plus in that category that have accumulated at a very high income level for a very long period of time and invested along there. I think there will also be these outlier, ridiculous entrepreneurs, money managers like Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett, and entrepreneurs who have built several hundred million dollars, several billion businesses early in life, and those guys get a lot of social media press, but I bet you that the majority of this 1%, this majority of this minority are high income earners who spent below their means and accumulated over several decades, and they just had a higher than average income and a lower than average expense and invested appropriately when there’ll also be a disproportionate skew towards small business owners would be my guess in that category.

Mindy:
Okay. I was going to ask you how you guess that they invest. I was thinking that the 1% is investing in real estate, large scale real estate, not your single family homes, but your large apartment complexes, your large office buildings and industrial warehouse things, private businesses, but at a higher level. I said Peter Thiel because when I was thinking of top 1%, I was going billionaires. Peter Thiel famously invested in PayPal and got a bunch of stock in PayPal, and when he received it, he put it into his Roth IRA because he had, I don’t know, it was like a penny a share or something, and he put it all into his Roth IRA, and it grew and now his Roth is 5 billion. I love that story so much because that is not at all what the Roth was intended for, but he’s going to pay $0 in taxes on that $5 billion because it’s in his Roth.
So another thing that I think they do is make really, really smart informed decisions. Warren Buffet says that he spends his day reading, he reads every newspaper out there, he reads all the articles online, he just consumes all of this information and kind of stores it away. So when he’s making a decision about buying a business down the road, he’s like, oh, these people have a big moat because I remember this article, that article, and he’s pulling from all of his vast knowledge base in his brain. So I think that they are very well educated. And Scott, let’s go and see how much they’re doing in crypto.

Scott:
There’s a few crypto ones I’m sure, but I bet you that’s not going to make up a big chunk piece of our pie here either.

Mindy:
How do you think they invest?

Scott:
I think that again, that’s excluding these billionaires. Every billionaire has some, or I think the vast majority of billionaires have some remarkable journey, at least all the ones that are anywhere along that self-made spectrum where they just brought some incredible genius or luck or skill to bear on a series of moves that paid off handsomely and compounded over a good amount of time. So those are the outliers I’m looking at. The person who’s got a $15 million net worth, I’m going back to the Millionaire next door, that book, this is probably somebody that you never would know has a 15 to $25 million net worth by looking at ’em. They probably, again, own a small business or have a profession that earns a very high income, but they spend way below their means would otherwise allow them to spend. I believe they will have invested consistently in a small business for a very long period of time.
I believe that they will have a significant portion of their wealth inequities, either in index fund like investments or in individual companies like companies that they’ve been buying or holding for a very, very long period of time. I believe real estate will be a major component of the portfolio. I believe that they’ll have a large amount of cash on hand, even as a percentage of their portfolios. I believe they’ll be lightly levered for the most part on a relative basis, and again, with some outliers, but that’s what I would be expecting to see here. There’s always an anecdote in the Millionaire Next door about a guy who went to buy a business and was like, well, it didn’t look anything like what the seller anticipated a buyer of the business to look like, very casually dressed, showed up in an old car, and well, there he is, ready to plop down millions of dollars to buy this business largely in cash. And I think that would be my guess.

Mindy:
Well, let’s see who’s right, Scott. Now we need to take a quick add break, but listeners, I am so excited to announce that you can now buy your ticket to BiggerPockets Conference BP Con 2025 in Las Vegas, Nevada, which is October five through seven. Score the early word pricing for $100 off by going to biggerpockets.com/conference while we’re away. Welcome back to the show.

Scott:
Alrighty, let’s do it. Here is the dataset. What we’re looking at here is Federal Reserve data, which discusses assets by wealth percentile group. The Federal Reserve data does a really good job with this in my opinion. We have the bottom 50% discussed, which have a very small amount of the wealth in the country. We then take the 50th through 90th percentile, the 90th through 99th percentile, and we break apart the top 1% into the 99 through 99.9 percentile and the top 0.1% because wealth is so heavily skewed in terms of its distribution towards the top 1.1% in this country, this produces the most fair visual of this. The Federal Reserve data also allows us to take this and look at the percentages of wealth as they’re distributed across these percentiles. So the top 0.1%, for example, has a very different way that their wealth is distributed compared to the bottom 50th percentile.
We’re going to talk about specifically the 90th ninth through 99.9 percentile in our definition of the 1%. So we can exclude Mindy’s friend, Peter Thiel, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger in this discussion and talk much more about my hypothesized fictional small business owner who spent 40 years earning a high income and not spending very much to accumulate a large pile of assets here potentially. We’ll see. And in describing this, let’s look at the breakout in terms of percentage of their wealth. Again, these are people that have a wealth of at least on average over $11.9 million. Let’s take a look at how this wealth is broken out for these folks. So first, real estate is 16%. That sounds actually quite low to me, I think is a surprise. Corporate equities and mutual fund shares publicly traded stocks, for example, are 44% of the distribution for these folks. Private businesses are 14% of the distribution and other is 16%. Things like defined pension benefit entitlements, consumer goods, and other types of pensions and retirement accounts that are not in the after-tax brokerage account comprise less than 10% of the wealth in terms of asset allocation for this group. Mindy, what are your reactions to this? What surprises you and stands out about this dataset?

Mindy:
I’m surprised that real estate isn’t a larger amount of their net worth. And again, I’m not talking primary residents. I’m talking about large multifamily buildings, commercial real estate. I really had it in my head that the wealthy are all in on real estate. I am surprised that 44% of their net worth is in publicly traded companies that anybody can buy, not just the wealthy can buy. Not anybody can buy an apartment building. You need a lot money for that. But anybody can buy a share of a stock, maybe not Berkshire Hathaway, but B shares. Those are like four or $500, right?

Scott:
I think that’s the biggest thing that stands out for me as well. And when we look at the 0.1%, 50% of their wealth is in publicly traded companies, corporate equities and mutual fund shares. They also do own about 20% of their wealth comes in the form of private business ownership. They own even less real estate.

Mindy:
I wonder if that’s just because it’s a percentage of their net worth. So even they might own a lot of real estate, it’s just they also own a lot of publicly traded companies. I have been investing in the stock market for, I dunno, 30, 35 years, and it is up and to the right for the most part. We’ve had some down years, we’ve had some several down years, but I think that you can’t really argue with the top 0.1%, the top 1%, the top 10%. It’s when you get into below the top 10%, the 50 to 90% that you see much more real estate and far fewer publicly traded companies. And again, let’s go over there and look right at that. 38.9% is real estate and 9% is publicly traded companies. 16% is defined benefit pension entitlements, 10% is defined contribution pension entitlements, 4% is in private businesses and 15% is in other. I would be so curious to see what other breaks down to, I would love to see that broken out into more categories just because I’m nosy

Scott:
When I look at this chart right here, 50 to 90th percent and then 90 if through 99% I see the middle class trap, right? I see a very large distribution of wealth in what is likely to be a primary residence in the 50th through 90th percentile. I see a very large distribution of wealth in the 401k or other defined benefit plans. I see a very small slice of wealth in corporate equities and mutual funds, which I assume are largely outside of their retirement accounts. And then I think that there’s an overweighting towards consumer goods and possibly this other category on this. So I think that’s a middle class trap right here is what I’m seeing.

Mindy:
I see that, but I also wonder because 50 to 90 is 40% of the population. That seems like such a large amount, they could have broken it out a little bit more. The bottom 50, I think I’m okay with that being like that, but I would’ve liked 50 to 75 and 75 to 90. I think you would have a different breakdown, but also I would be so curious to see what other assets means. And by this I’m talking about crypto and things that aren’t mainstream or are mainstream, but people who don’t have a large net worth shouldn’t be investing in.

Scott:
The other category is remarkably consistent in terms of a percentage of wealth invested across every one of these wealth categories. And Mindy, I agree it would be great to see different breakouts for different wealth percentiles, but also I think that the Fed did a very reasonable job here because these are the largest, these are very reasonable pieces of the total wealth of Americans. It’s remarkable that the bottom 50th percentile, the bottom half of Americans own about 10 trillion in wealth. The top 0.1% own 22 trillion in wealth, right? It’s a remarkable inequality that we’re looking at in this, and so that’s probably why they visualized the data in these percentile groups in order to help us understand where that wealth is distributed and how it’s invested here.

Mindy:
I am glad you pointed that out, Scott. And also for anybody who’s listening to this on the podcast on audio, it might be a good one to go watch on YouTube so you can follow along with what we are talking about here with all of these different, because we are looking at a chart, and it’s pretty fascinating, this chart.

Scott:
Let’s go back in time here. What they do is a great job here is let’s go back to before covid. So we’re looking at 2024 Q3 data. Let’s take a look at what happens.

Mindy:
Oh my goodness, in the way back machine.

Scott:
I like going to 2019 Q3 as in this. So let’s take it. Let’s tear this down, right? We see different percentiles here. Let’s see what jumps out to us here. Not much. The wealthy have invested very consistently across time for that. There’s a couple of notable differences though. What do we see that stands out most about where the top 1% or 0.1% invest when we toggle back and forth between the two? So let’s just look at this top 1% here and see what happens. Not much pretty consistent. It’s not like one of these asset classes. Turbocharged it. Let’s go back in time. Another five years, right? Okay. Some interesting stuff. The stocks were not nearly as big a piece of that real estate starting to gain share. Let’s go back to 2006 and see what happened there. Real estate’s a much bigger piece of the pie here. And if we go back to 2000, we got our look at that, the market contractions and expansions to make a big difference here, but the story’s the same. We’re seeing that wealth is concentrated if we’re these top 1% or top 0.1% folks through time in publicly traded corporations and in privately held businesses with a sprinkling of real estate that actually diminishes as a percentage of the portfolio the wealthier one gets.

Mindy:
This is so much fun to play with, and we will include a link to this chart, so you can check it out in our show notes.

Scott:
Let’s conjecture here about how these folks got to these positions, and I think that it’s a little easier for me. Well, we already did that at the very beginning, but I bet you that your 0.1%, your Peter Teals are largely reflected in this category here. And a big chunk of that corporate equities piece is folks that either made an enormous killing betting on Tesla in the early days, or were former employees of Microsoft or some of these big corporations that really rode these enormous waves of equity ownership up there like Nvidia, I saw that one in ridiculous percentage of Nvidia employees are now millionaires and some ridiculous percentage are now worth over $25 million because of their equity ownership. So I bet you that reflects, that’s providing a good chunk of this for a lot of those folks. I’d also, surely there’s entrepreneurs in the executives that have earned big compensation in these companies, taking them public or those areas. So that’s got to be one of the most obvious way is to get into that elite income categories in the United States, right? Would you agree with that?

Mindy:
Yeah, I would say so. I mean, my husband worked in tech and a lot of his friends work in tech and they came together and worked at one company and then they would go off to other companies, and I hear some of these salaries and some of these stock options that are part of their salary. It blows my mind. I had a friend who was working at Amazon and he was getting something like 2000 shares of Amazon every quarter, and that’s just part of his salary. And I dunno if you follow this, but Amazon, they’re doing okay right now.

Scott:
Yeah, I heard they became a pretty big company over the last 20 years, so you invested in that early. You’re probably in this group as that, and that’s probably one of the, but that’s probably, I bet you there’s a disproportionate amount of this point. 1% of Americans, let’s do the math here. How many Americans are there? 341 million Americans. So 1% of that is 3.4. Let’s start how many American households, because that’s what we’re really looking at here. So there’s 132 million American households, 1% of that is 1.3 million. 1.3 million people comprise these two categories. 130,000 individual households comprise the top 0.1%, and I bet you that a very good chunk of that close to half made their money by having some sort of outsized participation in the growth of one of these behemoth companies in the tech category, early Facebook employees, Tesla employees, Amazon employees, those types of folks, Nvidia employees and the like.
So that’s probably a really good chunk of this. The next biggest chunk of these 0.1% folks are probably are the owners of private businesses. So these are folks that probably built a business and sold it to private equity or in the private equity world there. They’re not quite in that publicly traded category, but that’s how they built their wealth in those categories. I have no idea what other means here. So if anyone listening or watching has an idea what other comprises, that definition is not provided by the Fed on this, so we don’t know what’s in it. And then very few folks made it to the top 0.1% by investing in real estate, and I bet you that those folks are disproportionately large real estate syndicators and fund managers who have been doing it across decades and really earned their returns and fees and carried interest on performing real estate investments of very large scale.

Mindy:
Oh, okay. Let’s look at the key differences between how the wealthy invest and the average investor. So Scott, would you say the average investor is the top 10% or the 50 to 90%?

Scott:
I think the 50 to 90th percentile is the right dynamic, right? If you’re in the bottom 50th percent of wealth, you’re likely just getting started or have just begun listening to BiggerPockets money, we will quickly help you move out of the bottom 50th percentile on there into the top, the top 50 to 90th, and then ideally approach the top 10% level of wealth, which is where you’ll need to be to fire. And if you’re not interested in fire, you should not be listening to BiggerPockets money because that’s all we do on this, or at least the option to fire for this. So let’s look at the 50th through 90th percentile, and I think the biggest thing that stands out here again, is the middle class trap, right? These are folks that bought a home, have two cars that comprise a good chunk of that wealth, and here in the consumer durable goods or other assets category, maybe that other concludes the cars in this category on this and all that wealth is in their retirement plans.
So there’s no option, there’s no way to get super lucky on this. There’s nothing that can actually carry the portfolio through on this, right? If someone came into BiggerPockets Money podcast for a finance Friday and said, I’m worth 500 grand and I got 200 of that in my house in my home equity, I got another 115 in my retirement accounts, I got 35 in my outside of after-tax brokerage account and I got a little bit of cash crypto and two cars in various stages of being paid off, we’d tell ’em, Hey, man, you need to really think about cutting your expenses, making some life lifestyle changes or drastically increasing your income or otherwise amassing cash and concentrating it in an investment category that could propel you up the chain in a bigger way. This portfolio will not get you anywhere quickly. It is too diversified on there, on too low level of net worth to move you across this asset category. You must take more concentrated risks or generate more after-tax cash to invest in after-tax assets that could propel your wealth forward.

Mindy:
What I see is the real estate, which I read as home equity at 38%, and unless you are me doing a live-in flip or Craig doing house hacking or Scott doing house hacking or somebody who is using their house to generate income, your home is not an investment. Your home is where you live. It is not of your investment portfolio, and you can email [email protected] to tell me how wrong I am, but your home is not an investment. So we’re taking away that almost 40% and looking at the rest of it, consumer durable goods, I don’t even understand what that means. So I’m going to skip that too because it’s my show and I can Corporate equities and mutual fund shares, we all know those are publicly traded companies at 9.6%. I love that they’re getting into it, but defined benefit pension entitlements. Scott, what does those words mean?

Scott:
These are going to be like pensions and retirement accounts. So your 401k, your Roth IRA, your pension that you’re building up at work, the thrift savings plan if you’re in the military, all those are going to combine into these two categories, defined benefit pension entitlements and defined contribution pension entitlements.

Mindy:
My dear listeners, we have a brand new BiggerPockets money newsletter. If you’re interested in receiving this newsletter, you can go to biggerpockets.com/money newsletter to sign up. Thanks for sticking with us. Why do they have such big words? Why can’t you just say 401k and retirement plans and pensions? But anyway, I digress. Private businesses, 4%. I think that is not surprising at this level because I don’t know a lot of small business owners. I know a lot of the ones that I do are real estate agents. My real estate agency is my business. It’s not really when I consider a business that’s not really the kind of business that I think of when I think of a small business, I think of somebody who is selling products or providing goods and services to others, so a small percentage of the private business and then other assets at 15%. I can really see that being cars. I can see that being, oh, my friend told me to buy crypto and he’s rich. So I did. I was having a conversation with somebody recently and they said, oh yeah, crypto was up really a lot last year, so I’m doing really well and I just had to stop. I mean, if your investment is so great, why are you harping it all the time? There’s always this hype that’s going on

Scott:
Because Mindy, it’s going to make your bloodline as one crypto bro told me in one of the comments.

Mindy:
I don’t even know what that means.

Scott:
I don’t know either, but yeah. Oh, another crypto bro tells me that I will not be remembered because I did not invest in Bitcoin. My legacy will die. That’s how important it’s, yeah.

Mindy:
Oh, I will remember you, Scott, but I’m also way older than you, so I’m probably going to die before you.

Scott:
I do have an update on this one actually. I want to define the difference between define pension benefit entitlement and define contribution pension entitlement. Define benefit pension entitlements are things like a pension for a teacher or a firefighter or a police officer or those types of things. So you’re not necessarily contributing directly to them or you’re contributing in a minor way that’s automated, but this is a pension that is guaranteed by somebody, the government or a large corporation. This is your 401k defined contribution pension entitlements, so that’s surprising to me.

Mindy:
Yeah, that 40% of Americans that we’re talking about 40 16% of them have a pension and 10% of them have some form of 401k that they are building, but it’s not a lot of 401k. It’s back up there. So I would think that corporate equities and mutual fund shares are after tax investments rather than 401k investments, maybe a Roth IR or something. So we’re back to the bulk of their wealth is most likely in their home. Maybe they have another rental property or something, but it’s mostly in their home and they are absolutely going to fall into the middle class trap because that’s even harder to access than your retirement accounts. I mean, if I needed to get into my 401k, I can get into it today and just pay a 10% penalty. I don’t want to, but I can get to it with my equity. I have to get a home equity loan, and I have been trying to get a home equity loan, and let me tell you, that is not easy at all. So how do we reach those 40% of Americans, Scott? Those are the people that need to be listening to our show. Not that we don’t love all the rest of our listeners, but the 40% right there is really who needs to be listening.

Scott:
One question that this does not answer for us though is obviously the pension or the 401k as a percentage of total wealth declines for the top 1% and top 0.1%. My guess is that the reason for that is not because the top 1% or 0.1% don’t contribute to these things, but because they’ve created so much more of their wealth outside of those accounts, that they’re able to max those out. Okay, let’s do another analysis here. So this says it’s 22 trillion in terms of the top total 1.1% wealth. This is by household. We know there’s 134 million households in America, so there’s 134,000 houses. Let’s do 22 trillion equals 22 trillion divided by 134,000, $164 million. So these people are truly worth 150 ish million dollars a pop on there. So it’s no surprise that the 401k, even if you max it out every year and invest it reasonably well, you ain’t going to get that beyond about 1.5 million in an average lifetime for Americans. So that makes sense. That’s an interesting finding there, but if you want to get a hundred million dollars or more, you ain’t going to do it by having all that wealth tapped in your house.

Mindy:
I don’t want to do the work to get the a hundred million, but I would definitely take it if somebody wanted to start writing checks. That’s Jensen, J-E-N-S-E-N, and you can email me [email protected] for my address if you want to send me a hundred million bucks.

Scott:
Yeah, we probably should have defined that at the very beginning of this, but we wanted to react in real time to the dataset to have a good discussion about it. I think that helped things.

Mindy:
Okay, so Scott, what can we learn from the investment habits of the 1% and the 0.1% that we could apply to our own portfolios?

Scott:
Businesses are the way to get into the truly elite income categories. There’s a smattering of real estate that’s a part of that, and I believe real estate’s a great way to build a portfolio and get into the millionaire status. I think it’s a proven path there, but to get really, really rich, hundreds of millions of dollars, you’re building a business.

Mindy:
You don’t have to build it. You can buy it.

Scott:
You’re buying and building a business. You are participating in the growth of one of these corporate behemoths that go on to have multi-trillion dollar valuations, or you’re building a huge private business or participating meaningfully in a huge private business. But I don’t see another way if you want to get into the top 1% or 0.1% outside of that, I mean, even if you’re a doctor earning huge amounts of money, you’re never going to get into the 0.1% unless you get super lucky with something out there that has to be a business to get into that at 0.1% to get $158 million, $154 million, it’s business in there. Or it’s the small elite cadre of wealth managers, which is business that are doing real estate or other types of investing with those funds.

Mindy:
And when somebody says business, when you say own a small business, Scott or own a business, that doesn’t mean you own Amazon. There are so many small businesses out there that you can invest in. Tim Delaney was on our podcast, I want to say it was episode 3 29, but I cannot remember exactly what his episode was. 3 25. He talked about buying a liquor store and he found this little liquor store near him. It was a mom and pop shop. They still had price stickers on everything. They had no POS system, they had no really any kind of inventory system, and they closed up one night. He had negotiated everything, and then they transferred the inventory over. They closed up one night. They did manual inventory all night long. The next day he opened up, he brought in a POS system, he brought the company up to current standards and has elevated his wealth.
And that’s not an unusual story. It might not be a story that you have heard before, but it is absolutely not an unusual story. There’s all sorts of small businesses that are mom and pop shops that have been there forever. They aren’t up to date, technologically aren’t. There’s lots of different practices you could do. I was in advertising for 13 years and I can’t tell you how many people just don’t advertise at all. Oh, I don’t want to spend the money on it. Advertising will get you so much more business as if a good business. I mean, if you’re a garbage business, that’s not going to help you at all. But there are so many things you can do that a lot of people, a lot of small business owners aren’t doing. They, oh, well, I’m as busy as I want to be. So there’s opportunities out there.

Scott:
I’ll call this out. I think that the small business buying opportunity, like what Tim Mullaney did, and I think Tim Deney has a great portfolio and is certainly able to live a fire lifestyle from that. The top, you ain’t getting $10 million anytime soon buying a liquor store right’s not going to happen.

Mindy:
No, but that’s the first step.

Scott:
So you’re going to need to chain together moves like that over many years to get to $10 million or you’re going to have to do something that’s more scalable on there. You’re going to need a lot of time in compounding to do it with those. Another concept that I’m going to throw out here, the top 0.1%, I bet you more than half of those people got there via some form of meaningful carried interest. You familiar with this term, Mindy? Maybe the listeners. Okay, so let’s say you join a company and you get an option grant in that company. So you join Amazon when it’s worth 500 million in the early days, you get an option grant for 0.1% of Amazon’s future valuation in excess of $500 million. I don’t know if that happened on Amazon, but that would not be an uncommon situation for a company like that, for a director, vp, whatever. The ranges will vary depending on that, right? A CEO would get much more carried interest in that and a chief financial officer less so on and so forth. But Amazon is worth what, like a trillion dollars right now, right? Several trillion.

Mindy:
Oh, I don’t know what their current net worth is.

Scott:
Amazon market cap, Amazon is worth $2.1 trillion. So 0.1% of times $1 trillion is 0.1% times 0.1 trillion is one Teslas is what AI is telling me. That’s hilarious. That’s not exactly what’s happening here, but times 1 trillion is going to be, there’s a lot of zeros associated with this number, so give me a second here. Billion dollars. So the and just probably came as that person’s compensation package. That’s what I mean by these early investors in these companies. That is how many thousands of people had that happened to them to some degree in Tesla or Amazon, Nvidia, Microsoft, apple, Facebook, now, meta alphabet, so on and so forth. And that’s still a large number on a billion or 10 billion company like a Zillow or a NerdWallet or something like that. So I bet you that’s a major component of what’s going on here, and that can also of course happen in private business.

Mindy:
That is kind of blowing my mind,

Scott:
And that’s why people join companies like that, right? In those positions, they want crack at that upside, right? Another one is the syndicator world, right? A syndicator. This is common to many of the guests that have been on BiggerPockets in recent years, buys a hundred million dollars apartment complex, they put $40 million in equity. They don’t come up with that. They raise that from other investors. If the apartment complex goes to $140 million in valuation over the next three years, we have a $40 million gain. That gain is split 70 30 with the investors and the person doing the deal. So 30 million of that rounding here would go back to the investors, and 10 million of the profits is carried interest, which is paid out to the person who raised the funds and did the deal. There’s much more to it than that, but those are likely the mechanisms by which the top 0.1% generated that those 130,000 households generated so much incredible wealth.

Mindy:
I think that’s really interesting, Scott. It’s a little mind blowing, but I think it’s really, really interesting. Something to think about. If you’re younger and you’re listening to this show and you’re like, oh, how can I grow my wealth? I want to be a 0.1% or go work for the next Amazon, the next Nvidia, the next Tesla, ooh, SpaceX.

Scott:
I bet you that those folks disproportionately represent that top 0.1% and that a very small minority of them are the incredible, super famous elite athletes and the billionaires that you probably recognize by name in many cases around there. I bet you that the silent majority of the top 0.1% are people who got carried interest in private businesses or public businesses that really went on to become huge.

Mindy:
And if you are a 0.1 percenter and would like to tell us how you invest, please email [email protected] [email protected]. I don’t think we’re going to get a lot of those emails, but I would love it if we did.

Scott:
Yeah, we’d love to have a top 0.1 percenter there. We come up on a thousand episodes. We want to feature every money story. We have not had a 0.1% hundred, someone with $150 million net worth. Come on and tell their story. Maybe Kevin O’Leary actually would be an exception to that. So we did have Kevin O’Leary. Come on.

Mindy:
Yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll have to get somebody else on too, or Kevin, come back.

Scott:
Well, with that, should we get out of here? Mindy?

Mindy:
We should. Scott, that wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. You are Scott Trench. I am Mindy Jensen saying So long King Kong.

 

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Real estate investors are always looking for ways to gain more control over their investments, reduce administrative delays, and maximize tax advantages. One strategy that enables all three goals is using a checkbook IRA LLC—a structure that allows investors to purchase real estate directly through their retirement accounts. By forming a single-member or multi-member LLC within a self-directed IRA (SDIRA), investors can streamline transactions, manage properties more efficiently, and pool capital for larger deals.

Before you start, it’s important to understand the main differences between single-member and multi-member LLCs, how they work within an IRA, and how to set up your own checkbook IRA LLC.

Why Investors Open an LLC Within an IRA

A checkbook IRA LLC is a legal entity owned by an IRA that allows investors to write checks directly for real estate purchases. Instead of waiting for a custodian to approve transactions, an IRA-owned LLC gives investors immediate control over funds, making it easier to seize time-sensitive investment opportunities.

Potential benefits of using an LLC in an IRA include:

  • Faster transactions: No need for custodian approval on each investment decision.
  • Greater control: Investors manage their own transactions while maintaining compliance with IRS regulations.
  • Ability to pool funds: Multi-member LLCs allow multiple investors to combine capital for larger investments.
  • Liability protection: Separates IRA assets from personal assets, which can reduce risk exposure.

Single-Member vs. Multi-Member LLCs: What’s the Difference?

Investors can structure their checkbook IRA LLC as either a single-member LLC (owned by one SDIRA) or a multi-member LLC (owned by multiple SDIRAs or other investors). Understanding the differences between the two structures is crucial for choosing the right option for your investment strategy.

Here are visuals of how single-member and multi-member LLCs are set up through self-directed IRA custodian Equity Trust Company, which offers the Real Estate Checkbook IRA LLC in either configuration. 

image1
image2
Feature Single-Member LLC Multi-Member LLC
Ownership One IRA owns 100% of the LLC Multiple IRAs or investors share ownership
Control & decision-making Investor has full control Decisions must be made with partners
Tax treatment Pass-through entity (typically disregarded) May require a partnership tax return
Funding flexibility Funds come from one SDIRA Can pool funds from multiple SDIRAs or investors
Best for Investors who want complete control over investments Investors who want to partner on larger opportunities

Percentage of ownership is proportionate to the capital contributed. Rules apply, including disqualified persons and prohibited transactions: See IRC 4975 for more information.

How to Set Up an Account With an LLC

Creating an IRA LLC involves several key steps to ensure compliance with IRS rules. Here’s how to get started:

Step 1: Open and fund a self-directed IRA

Before forming an LLC, you must establish a self-directed IRA with a custodian that allows alternative investments, such as real estate. You can fund the SDIRA by rolling over funds from an existing retirement account or making a new contribution.

Step 2: Form a new LLC

Select a name for your LLC and register it with the appropriate state agency. The SDIRA itself—not you personally—will be the owner of the LLC. (At Equity Trust, our affiliate Equity Doc Prep handles this for you.)

Step 3: Open a business checking account

Once the LLC is formed, you’ll need to set up a business bank account in the LLC’s name. (Equity Trust uses an integrated bank that specializes in this type of bank account.) All transactions related to investments must go through this account to maintain compliance.

Step 4: Transfer funds to your checking account

Direct your IRA custodian to transfer your IRA funds to your business checking account. 

Step 5: Start investing

With the LLC fully established, you now have checkbook control over your IRA funds and can begin purchasing real estate, tax liens, private loans, and other investments. Revenue (rents) and expenses from your IRA-owned property must flow directly through your business checking account.

Common Mistakes to Avoid

While an IRA LLC offers many potential advantages, it’s important to avoid common pitfalls that could jeopardize your investment and tax-advantaged status, including:

  • Prohibited transactions: The IRS strictly prohibits certain transactions, such as using the LLC to buy property for personal use or conducting business with disqualified persons (e.g., family members). Violating these rules could result in severe tax penalties.
  • Mixing personal and IRA funds: All investment-related expenses must be paid from the LLC’s bank account. Using personal funds for any aspect of an IRA-owned property can lead to compliance issues.
  • Failing to file necessary tax documents: While a single-member LLC is typically a disregarded entity for tax purposes, a multi-member LLC may need to file a partnership tax return (Form 1065). Investors should consult a tax professional to ensure proper reporting.
  • Not keeping records of transactions: Investors should maintain detailed records of all LLC activities, including expenses, rental income, and asset management decisions, to remain in compliance with IRS regulations.

Learn More and Get Started

Setting up an IRA LLC can be a powerful way to take control of your retirement investments while maximizing flexibility and efficiency. Certain custodians, such as Equity Trust Company, provide full real estate checkbook IRA LLC establishment services, all in one place. If you’re ready to explore this type of account setup, connect with an Equity Trust IRA Counselor.

Equity Trust Company is a directed custodian and does not provide tax, legal, or investment advice. Any information communicated by Equity Trust is for educational purposes only, and should not be construed as tax, legal, or investment advice. Whenever making an investment decision, please consult with your tax attorney or financial professional.

Equity Doc Prep, LLC (formerly Midland Forms, LLC) is a document preparation company and is not authorized to advise you as to which documents you should use or may need; such advice would be considered the “practice of law.” Please consult your legal or financial advisor before making any financial decisions. Under the guidelines for legal document preparation services, you must make all legal decisions yourself — including decisions about the type of documents you need.

BiggerPockets/PassivePockets is not affiliated in any way with Equity Trust Company or any of Equity’s family of companies. Opinions or ideas expressed by BiggerPockets/PassivePockets are not necessarily those of Equity Trust Company, nor do they reflect their views or endorsement. The information provided by Equity Trust Company is for educational purposes only. Equity Trust Company, and their affiliates, representatives, and officers do not provide legal or tax advice. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal. Please consult your tax and legal advisors before making investment decisions. Equity Trust and BiggerPockets/PassivePockets may receive referral fees for any services performed as a result of being referred opportunities.



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In a previous article, I made the case for why North Carolina might be the next boom state. In an accompanying video, I also pointed out that Utah had the highest population growth from new births. Its natural population growth, strong economy, and geographical constraints among its key cities are the main reasons I’m just as bullish on Utah (specifically, the string of cities along what’s called the Wasatch Front).

Utah’s Population Growth

Utah had the highest overall growth of any state from 2008-2023 (approximately 1.68% growth per year, on average).

This is due to some healthy inward migration but mostly because of the large positive amount of “natural change” (more people are simply being born in Utah).

Why is this the case? A relatively large portion of the population (42%) identifies as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (although this number has been steadily declining). And historically, Mormons have larger families than the average United States household. 

While it’s OK to talk about Utah as a whole, the majority of the population lives along the Wasatch Front, a string of cities between the lakes and the Wasatch Mountains, such as Salt Lake City, Provo, and Ogden. So, let’s dive deeper.

The Wasatch Front Economy

Jobs continue to be added in the Provo and Ogden MSAs, but Salt Lake City is the primary economic center of the region. 

While logistics and utilities make up the largest number of jobs, I like the growth in the “Professional and Business Services” and “Education and Health Services” sectors (white-collar jobs).

Let’s look at the median income for each region.

People are generally paid more in Salt Lake City than in the other two MSAs. However, both Provo and Ogden saw healthy income growth in 2024. Hopefully, this trend continues because many properties have become out of reach for first-time homebuyers:

Geographical Constraints

Here’s a quick, crude drawing of the buildable area between the lakes and the mountains in the region (excuse the messiness):

satellite image of Salt Lake City
Courtesy of Google Earth

As you can see from the geography, if the region keeps growing in population, it will eventually run out of buildable land and will have to rely on infill development. It doesn’t take much to imagine how that might affect real estate prices over time. Just look at any coastal California city as an example.

Final Thoughts

While I don’t think Utah will boom the same way North Carolina will, I think the relatively high birth rate and strong economy, combined with the geographical constraints of the region, will push property values up faster than its other pandemic boom-town counterparts like Austin, Texas, or Raleigh, North Carolina. 

(I could also make a similar argument for Boise, Idaho. In fact, Boise, Salt Lake City, and Raleigh are my top three metros, and I predict they will see the highest appreciation in the next 10 years.)

Do you live in the region? Do you agree or disagree? Let me know in the comments. I haven’t spent too much time in the region, and I’d love anyone with boots-on-the-ground experience to add their thoughts.

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In the rapidly evolving landscape of real estate investing, staying ahead requires adopting innovative marketing strategies that resonate with modern consumers. In 2025, integrating advanced technologies and personalized outreach has become paramount. 

Our partners at REsimpli have made real estate simple, bringing together the perfect mix of tools for real estate investors at all levels. Here are five marketing strategies every real estate investor should consider.

1. Embrace AI-Powered Marketing Automation

Artificial intelligence (AI) is revolutionizing how investors approach marketing. AI-driven tools can analyze vast datasets to predict market trends, optimize pricing strategies, and enhance lead generation efforts. By automating repetitive tasks, investors can focus on building relationships and closing deals.

Platforms like REsimpli offer AI-powered features such as call summaries. AI-generated call summaries provide concise overviews of client interactions, ensuring no critical detail is overlooked and enabling more informed follow-ups.

2. Leverage Data-Driven Direct Mail Campaigns

While digital marketing continues to grow, direct mail remains a potent tool, especially when combined with data analytics. Investors can craft targeted direct mail campaigns that reach the most promising prospects by analyzing demographic and behavioral data.

REsimpli simplifies this process by offering direct mail services with competitive pricing and no minimum order requirements. Users can choose from customizable templates, ensuring each mailer resonates with the recipient. Additionally, REsimpli provides free National Change of Address (NCOA) list-cleaning, ensuring that your mailing list is up-to-date and your outreach efforts are not wasted on outdated addresses.

3. Develop Hyperlocal Content Marketing

Today’s consumers seek personalized experiences. Investors can position themselves as experts in specific neighborhoods or communities by focusing on hyperlocal content. This approach builds trust and attracts clients interested in those areas.

Creating content highlighting local market trends, community events, and neighborhood insights can significantly boost engagement. Utilizing REsimpli’s SEO-optimized seller websites, investors can publish blogs, market reports, and videos that cater to the interests of their target audience, thereby enhancing online visibility and credibility.

4. Utilize Virtual Tours and Augmented Reality

The COVID-19 pandemic accelerated the adoption of virtual tours and augmented reality (AR) in real estate. These technologies allow potential buyers or renters to explore properties remotely, providing a comprehensive understanding without physical visits.

Investors should consider incorporating high-quality virtual tours and AR experiences into their marketing strategies. This not only caters to out-of-town prospects but also streamlines the decision-making process for local clients. By integrating these technologies, investors can showcase properties more effectively and reach a broader audience.

5. Implement Comprehensive CRM Systems

Managing leads, communications, and transactions can be overwhelming without the right tools. A robust customer relationship management (CRM) system centralizes client interactions, automates follow-ups, and provides valuable insights into sales pipelines. Without an effective CRM, real estate investors often struggle to track leads, and they miss opportunities due to disorganized workflows and inefficient communication.

REsimpli offers an all-in-one CRM tailored for real estate investors. It streamlines lead generation, follow-ups, and deal tracking in one place. Advanced features include lead management, automated drip campaigns, and built-in tools, so no lead slips through the cracks.

By consolidating these essential functions, investors can significantly enhance their efficiency, reduce time spent on administrative tasks, and focus more on closing deals. Automating repetitive processes and gaining deep insights into lead behavior allows for smarter decision-making, ultimately increasing conversion rates and business growth.

Final Thoughts

The real estate market in 2025 and beyond demands a blend of traditional marketing methods and cutting-edge technology. By embracing AI-powered tools, data-driven direct mail, hyperlocal content, virtual tours, and comprehensive CRM systems, investors can position themselves for success in this dynamic environment. Platforms like REsimpli provide the necessary tools to implement these strategies effectively, ensuring that investors stay ahead of the competition and meet the evolving needs of clients. 

Let’s make your next investment your best investment yet. 



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Mortgage rates are down, so the housing market should be entering a frenzy…right? Not quite. The buyer’s market seems alive and well, with sellers offering concessions as the housing market visibly “slows.” What’s causing it? New inventory hitting the market? Tariff talks leading to higher housing costs? We’re getting into it all in this episode as we hit on four of last week’s top headlines.

First, how much will a new home cost now that tariffs are in place? With lumber, labor, and material prices all rising, there could be a five-figure added cost per home for homebuilders, making it even more expensive for buyers. Will labor costs continue to rise in 2025 after years of solid growth, or will renovators and flippers finally get relief?

The housing market is slowing down even as we get closer to the spring homebuying season. Home prices are DOWN year-over-year, but one caveat makes this a half-truth. With more inventory hitting the market, buyers could have their pick! And that inventory could grow even greater as mortgage delinquencies start to rise—should we begin to worry? Enough speculation; let’s get into it!

Dave:
Today we’re diving into the housing market headlines that are dominating the news. Our panel of experts is here, Kathy Fettke, Henry Washington and James Dainard, and we’re bringing together our takes on the key headlines that you should know about as a real estate investor. Welcome to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Let’s jump in. Kathy, how are you?

Kathy:
Great, so happy to see you.

Dave:
It’s good to see you as well. James, how you been? I’m doing good. Just trying to get some deals done. Oh, I’m sure you are. It’s good to have the gang back together. Henry, I would ask you how well you’re doing, but you told us before recording that you’re having a bad real estate day, so we want to hear about it. We

Kathy:
Want to hear all

Dave:
About it.

Henry:
I’ve got the real estate woes.

Dave:
I’m sorry man, it’s just one of those days. What happened?

Henry:
Well, this past week I was supposed to sell a flip and it got pushed because the property’s on a well and I needed to have the well water tested. And so we had the well water tested and it came back that there was some contaminants in the well water. I also spent $1,200 repairing this well, so it’s in good working order and part of the FHA guidelines was that they needed to now go out and measure how far the well is from the septic tank needs to be a hundred feet away. Found out today that mine was not a hundred feet away.

Kathy:
Oh no.

Henry:
So now I have to decommission the well that I just paid $1,200 to fix and I now have to apply for a tap into city water. The tap is across a busy street, double yellow line street. So I have to apply for the tap, wait to see if I get it,

Kathy:
And

Henry:
Then it’s going to cost me between six to 10 grand.

Kathy:
Ouch.

Henry:
To tap into city water, so could be losing our buyer.

Dave:
Oh my God. And how long is that going to take?

Henry:
Who knows? I’m at the best of the city. I have no clue.

Dave:
Oh my God, I’m sorry, man. That is brutal.

James:
The digging up the street is the most expensive part in that because you got to cut the street up. But what you want to do though is apply for a cost relief because you can get an exception a lot with a lot of cities if it goes above a certain amount to where they’ll let you move that well instead.

Henry:
Huh? Sounds like I’m having a whole conversation with James after this podcast. Okay.

Dave:
Let us know what happens because I’m sorry to hear this, Henry. That is rough, but it sounds like maybe James has some solutions for you. All right. We do have to get to our main show today, which was about headlines that all of us are following. If you listen to the show, you probably know the format. Each of us brings a headline that we are following in the news and the group discusses it. Kathy, we’re going to start with you today. What is the number one thing on your mind from the news?

Kathy:
Well, we knew that tariffs were coming and they’re here and they’re big ones and they’re 25%, and then there’s been retaliation because other countries don’t necessarily like that. So it’s been big news as far as it actually has been enacted because before during the campaign, I kept hearing people say, oh, he is not really going to do that, but here we are. And so the impact is something we as investors really need to be paying attention to. How much more is this going to cost us? The new tariffs could increase builder costs anywhere from 7,500 to $10,000 per home. So this will affect home buyers as well if it doesn’t change. But right now, this is where we are. And also my article is CNBC. Here’s how terrorists will hit the US housing market. So the third point they make is the greatest impact to home builders will be from lumber cost increases, which are expected to total about $4,900 per home on average. So these tariffs definitely going to affect home builders and certainly flippers the national builders just based on the fact that they could buy so much and maybe already have a lot of this in stock. Perhaps they won’t be as affected as the individual who’s going to be paying for this.

Henry:
Here we go again, this covid when wood went up and literally I had construction costs double during covid, so hopefully it won’t be that impactful, but I’ve lived through this once already.

Dave:
Well, we’ve already seen lumber prices go up 11% just this month, so it’s already getting pretty significant. It’s still half of where it was during covid, so let’s just keep that on perspective. It could go up more now because it went up before the tariffs were actually enacted, but we’re not in covid territory just yet.

Kathy:
Yeah, and I mean the biggest problem with Covid was that you couldn’t even get the lumber. There was complete shortage. So I don’t know that that’s the issue. It’s just more expensive. So clearly people are expecting that this will increase home prices. Could this have more buyers be focused on existing homes? Is this good for flippers because they maybe can’t afford a new home, they’re going to be going with an older one? Does this mean there’ll be more demand for rental property because this is priced out? Tens of thousands more people who cannot afford those increased home prices because of the tariffs? So a lot is in play. I’ve heard the president say that it’s temporary pain, so nobody really knows.

Dave:
And just for everyone listening, we are recording this on March 5th, so if things have changed, please forgive us. We are commenting on what has happened here As of the fifth and yesterday, president Trump announced and enacted the 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada, an additional 10% tariff on China, bring that up to 20% just today we heard that there was a suspension on the tariffs specifically for automobiles, so it’s very much in flux. I think for the purposes of our conversation, we need to assume that these tariffs are mostly going to stay as is, but if they change, we’ll obviously update our thoughts on that in the future.

Henry:
Yeah, I think it’s TBD on if this is actually going to raise new construction home prices because single family home sales are based on what consumers are willing to pay, it could just mean they can raise the price if they want to. It doesn’t mean someone’s going to pay for it. So builders could be eating the cost on this as well.

Dave:
Yeah, margin’s already down for builders.

James:
Lock your lumber prices now. That’s how lumber works. You can get a package, you can lock the price today if you think it’s going up, lock in now. So if you got any plans that you’re working on, submit ’em in, get your lumber locked in. It is not enjoyable when your costs are floating that much during a build

Kathy:
And mortgage rates have come down in part because of all this uncertainty and some economic news that’s come out recently that was a little more negative. So perhaps the lower mortgage rates will still allow the buyer to be able to afford the new home even if prices go up.

Dave:
I think that is kind of the interesting thing that this is happening in a time where demand is softening a little bit, especially for new builds, we’re starting to see lower sales transaction volume. It’s kind of softening across the market, and so this could actually offset each other like the increase in construction costs and the softness in the market could wind up offsetting each other like Henry said. All right. Should I make you guys all guess if you think tariffs are going to stick around, what do you think,

Henry:
Henry? Absolutely. I think they will.

Dave:
Okay. Kathy, what do you think?

Kathy:
Yeah, I actually think so. I think Trump is really trying to incentivize companies to do business here in the us so yeah, it’s possible.

Dave:
James, what’s your batt?

James:
I think it’s the art of the deal. I don’t think they’re going to stay. He’s trying to get what he wants and he’s coming in aggressive and I think they’re going to change up because at the end of the day, our economy’s a lot stronger than most of those other ones and they’re going to feel it worse. That’s the bottom line. And so I think it’s just bluffing personally, but I did not expect it to go into effect. Now

Dave:
I’m going to hedge. I think there will be tariffs, but there’ll be less than they are right now. There’ll be some sort of deal where certain things are excluded or tariffs on certain key things. I personally think automobiles are going to stay excluded or oil or lumber, things like this. Certain really important things will probably get excluded from Mexico and Canada. I expect the 20% on China to remain. That’s my guess as of right now. But we’ll see. And I’m sure everyone in the comments by the time this come out will tell us we’re wrong because something will have changed by now, but that’s just our guess as of now. All right. Well let’s move on to James’ article because James, I understand you’re bringing an article that talks about construction costs and how they’ve been changing even independent of the changes that are going on in tariffs.

James:
This article is for construction pros.com and it reveals the construction industry cost insights for quarter one of 2025. And so what this article talks in about, it had some interesting information. So the labor rate charges, which is going to be your general labor for project managers and labor wages increased 4.1% in 2024,

Dave:
4.1%. That’s kind of like average wage growth over the last year, so that’s not really more than what most labor is going up at least. So that’s kind of encouraging, right?

James:
Yeah, I thought so too. And then I started looking into what the average labor wage increase in 2022 was when we had a lot of inflation and we saw a lot of cost increases in construction, and the concerning thing is the average increase was only 3.4% in 2022.

Dave:
That just sounds wrong.

James:
That’s what I thought. But that’s according to the RS means 2022 construction cost report

Dave:
Sounds credible.

James:
The article also talks about the material costs. Those are the two biggest factors. How much did it cost to install it? What’s the material costs? They reported the 8.7 average material costs increase in 2024 and that this year they’re projecting at 3.1% increase. It is kind of strange that I’m seeing these numbers. I’m not feeling ’em today. Certain items, we’re definitely seeing cost increases on, especially on mini split systems, HVAC systems that are shipped in from overseas. If we see these tariffs hit that that could continue to grow. But overall, they’re thinking that 2025 is going to have some pretty steady increases on construction costs.

Kathy:
I mean, if you’re just going to sum up what all this means, it probably means higher home costs at a time when home prices are already so high and the only saving grace we may have is mortgage rates coming down to help save that buyer.

Dave:
I think one of the other potential impacts of this is that there’s just going to be less construction. We need more construction in the US generally speaking, and there might be a slowdown in single family homes. There’s already been a slowdown in commercial for sure, but we might see a corresponding slow down in residential if it’s just more expensive to build, especially in a soft market. We might just see lower starts for the foreseeable future, which these things move slowly but could have a long-term impact on housing prices.

James:
Well, yeah, and that’s what we are seeing is it’s not really increasing the price. In 2024, there was 3.9% less housing starts than the year before, and I honestly think it’s going to be even worse in 2025 because a lot of those were backlogged permits that were still in play in 2023 and we’re not really seeing housing go up as much. It’s really that builders are becoming less profitable because they’re getting squeezed on all sides. So I think the real impact isn’t going to be that the housing cost is going to keep going up unless rates fall, it’s going to be people selling land and selling their property to builders that they were getting paid premiums on are going to have to take a lot less for it to actually happen.

Dave:
All right. Well, Kathy, you mentioned the magic inventory word, Henry. I think your story has to do with this. We do have to take a quick break, but we’ll hear Henry’s story when we come back. Welcome back to On the Market. I’m here with James, Henry and Kathy talking about latest trends and news stories in the real estate investing universe. Henry, it is your turn. What story did you bring

Henry:
For us today? I really just brought a market trend update from realtor com, so it’s their February, 2025. What I like about this article is it kind of puts numbers to some of the things that people are seeing and feeling and hearing in the real estate world right now. People are hearing that things are slowing down, but what does that mean? And so in this market trend report, one of the things that calls out is the number of homes actively for sale does continue to be higher compared with last year. It’s growing by 27.5% and that’s 16 straight months of growth. It also talks about the number of total unsold homes, so that includes homes that are under contract have increased by 18.2% compared to last year, and it says that sellers who listed their homes at greater rates than last year with newly listing homes are increasing 4.2% year over year. So that’s a bit slower. It also talks about home prices. So the median home price for sale this February was down 0.8% compared with last year at $412,000. But it does have a caveat here that more small homes are being listed this year, which has helped decrease that list price relative to last year. Oh,

Dave:
Okay.

Henry:
Homes spent 66 days on the market, and this is five days more than the same month last year, so time on market has increased as well. Now there’s a chart that shows active listing count February, 2025. The trend line is kind of in the middle of the graph at around 847,000 listings. So post pandemic years, we are at the highest point for active listing count that we have seen, and it does the same thing for total listing count. So how many total listings? It’s almost identical. We’re right in the middle. We’re at the highest. We’ve been post pandemic, but we’re not near pre pandemic levels yet. I think all this means is that things are slowing down, it’s taking longer to sell homes, they are sitting longer on the market, inventory is creeping up, but they are not near pre pandemic levels yet. So things are slow and steady.
Things are still selling, it’s just taking longer for things to sell, and you do have more competition on the market, and we are seeing exactly that here in my local market. But again, this is national numbers. You need to look very locally. It does say that 15 Southern and western metros have more inventory than pre pandemic levels right now. So these are very market specific data points. You need to pay attention to your local market to understand how to adjust your underwriting so that you’re not losing all your profits to the length of time it takes for properties to sell.

Dave:
I look at the market, I follow a lot of markets. It does seem like everything is slowing down. We haven’t gotten to the point where most markets are negative, but it does just feel like it’s trending that way at least to flatness. To me, it’ll be interesting to see if lower rates reverse that trend. Consumer sentiment is down, economic confidence seems to be down. And so it seems like those are going to be sort of competing interest, like lower interest rates versus economic softness. Which one wins out in the housing market? Kathy, what do you think happens here?

Kathy:
Well, we’ve been waiting to see, right? We’ve been waiting for rates to come down to see if this excess inventory will get bought up and we’ll know in next month’s report for sure. But there is a lot of uncertainty. Certainly we talked about it before, but a lot of job lots is certainly in the government sector. There was a lot of hiring during the Biden administration and now a lot of those jobs are going to be gone, and that affected the real estate market then and it will affect it now. But at the same time, Barbara Corcoran’s been saying, if rates go down, people are going to get back in and start buying. It really comes down to affordability. When people are buying their primary, can they afford it, and they don’t worry so much about everything else that’s going on, they just want to make sure do they have a job and can they afford the house that they’d like to buy for their family? And if they can, then we’ll certainly see that in the numbers next month.

Dave:
Yeah. I’m curious so many people who are always saying, oh, I’ll buy when rates go down. Well, rates are going down, so are you’re going to buy, right? It’ll be interesting.

Kathy:
I mean, it’s the perfect time. It’s the perfect time to be buying. If you’ve got more inventory, you can negotiate a good deal and get a better interest rate. So let’s get the word out there, man. If you’ve been waiting, this is your time, this is the time to get in there.

Henry:
Absolutely. Every single one of the properties that we are currently selling that is currently under contract, we have given concessions. We have given them more than we would typically give them in the past. That’s because there’s a lack of eyeballs out there, meaning if I lose this buyer, we don’t know when the next one’s going to come. And so they’ve got some negotiating power. And so if you’re looking to buy like this is the time to go do it, I’m giving closing costs on all four of ’em right now, plus some other things

James:
With Seattle, the reason it’s doing well, even though we have a little bit more inventory according to Zander’s new home lot, Seattle is 23% undersupplied of housing today with even the current active inventory levels. And those are things we want to think about as investors. Like, okay, yes, inventory is increasing days on, markets are increasing a little bit, but there’s still a massive demand. Their showings have dramatically jumped. Even with all this tariff talk, which usually freezes our market, we’re still seeing a lot of bodies come through.

Dave:
Yeah, I mean that’s good news, James. I think we talk about it a lot how markets are changing. I think we’re going to see even more and more of that, particularly around job markets. Markets where people feel secure in their jobs I think are going to be doing just fine. And as Kathy said, feel good about your job and you can afford it. You’re probably going to buy a house if you’re worrying about your job, even if you afford it. That’s sort of like a gray area, and we kind of have to see how people are feeling about their financial security, but that’s why it’s so important to just keep track very closely of what’s going on in your individual market.

Kathy:
I think one thing to note also in Henry’s article on the market trends is that the median price of homes for sale in February was down 0.8% from last year at 412,000. But then there’s a sentence after that that’s really important to read. It says, however, more small homes are being listed this year, which decreases the median list price relative to last year. The median list price per square foot, which controls for size grew by 1.2%, indicating that home values continue to increase. So when you hear data, there’s always a little bit more to it and that median home price. I remember during the foreclosure crisis, it was like people really thought prices were crashing, which they were, but everything that was on the market was a foreclosure,

James:
Right? And there’s a lack of sales. So one expensive sale on the month can really change the median home price around. I feel like that data gives way more margin of error now in it.

Dave:
Well, if you all listening, want to get the most reliable data on home prices, there’s something called the Case Schiller Index. This is getting real nerdy, but they basically track same home sales over time, so it accounts for and sort of adjusts for the quantity of sales and the size of things. And so if you look at that, home prices were definitely up over the last 12 months. They’re slowing down, they’re flat over the last few months according to Case Shiller. But Kathy and James are absolutely right that if you look at Realtor or Zillow, their methodology is a little bit different. It’s a little more volatile case. Shiller is the best place to look if you want to really understand the true movement of home prices.

Henry:
Do you have a monthly best customer membership with them?

Dave:
I have their charts tattooed on my arm. I do it every month. It just reference it like a quarterback. Alright. All right. Well thank you for bringing that story, Henry. I have a really interesting one that I think is going to surprise a lot of people. We do have to take a quick break, but I’ll share it when we come back. Welcome back to On the Market. I’m here with Henry, James and Kathy talking and news and trends in the housing market. We’ve heard from all three of our panelists, I have one to share, which is something that honestly is worrying me a little bit, but there was an article from the Mortgage Bankers Association that showed that FHA mortgage delinquencies are on the rise. Now, I have for years been saying I didn’t think the housing market was going to crash. And the main reason I’ve been saying that is because people are paying their mortgages and unless people stop paying their mortgages, it’s pretty hard for the market to crash because people don’t voluntarily sell their homes at lower prices.
There has to be something called forced selling. They only forced get forced to sell if they’re going to get foreclosed on. And I want to caveat this and make sure everyone understands the total delinquency rate for people who aren’t paying their mortgage for conventional loans is actually very low. It’s extremely low. It went down year over year, but there’s a subsection of the market just FHA loans, which tend to be lower income households and VA loans. Those delinquency rates are actually starting to go up. And while I think we’re still a long way away from panicking about anything like this, it’s a trend that personally I think is really important to look at, particularly in markets or pockets of the country where there are high levels of FHA or VA loans. So anytime I see loan distress, I worry personally, but I’m curious if you guys are concerned about it or you think it’s kind of just a blip.

Kathy:
I don’t have the article in front of me, but I did report on a story recently where it has something to do with the foreclosure moratorium for VA loans that was up. So there was an increase there.

Henry:
I

Kathy:
Do not have that data, but there could be that.

Henry:
I also think there’s going to be, when you’re talking about FHA in va, there’s going to be a subset of people who take advantage of those programs who probably can only afford the home because of the low down payment and low cost of entry into the home. And I think what happens is, because I recently talked to a seller in this position, they get into the loans and then year over year that mortgage payment goes up as insurance goes up and taxes go up. And one person was telling me that they bought their home and the reason that they’re selling it now a year later is because their mortgage payment has gone up $350, which is substantial if you could barely afford the house in the first place and you weren’t putting down any money. So I think the people on the affordability cusp who are using these loans and they’re barely being able to make their mortgage payment, are going to find themselves in some of these tough positions because some people are just under the impression that your mortgage payment is fixed at that price that you get when you sign the documents on day one, and it never changes.
And that’s just not the case.

Dave:
Well, your principal and interest are often, but not your insurance and taxes. Those can definitely go up.

James:
I think Henry’s right, it’s that slow squeeze on expensive things, and that’s getting people, because when we sell a lot of houses, I can people stretch their DTIs and they’re barely getting in and that 300 bucks makes a big difference. And I think that’s what you’re seeing across the nation is it’s that slow squeeze. I mean, even subprime auto loans defaults were up 6.4% defaults on auto loans are now increasing. Credit cards are going up too. Credit cards, home insurance is a real cost used to not be. It makes big, big difference in your monthly payment.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely. I think I’ve mentioned this a few times, but it was almost a year ago now, but we had someone come on who said that in areas of Louisiana and Alabama, places on the Gulf Coast, taxes and insurance are now as much as principal and interest, which is just insane. You’re basically paying your mortgage twice

Henry:
Insane. It’s

Dave:
Crazy. Yeah. So it’s not everywhere, but obviously that’s going to have a huge impact on people. And I don’t know, I hope this is just a brief thing and either rate relief or hopefully reduction in inflation in the future will improve this. But like I said, anytime I see trouble in the debt market, it worries me. So the shift in trend is something to keep an eye on. All right, that’s what we got for you all today. Should we all just hang around and wait and listen to James and Henry talk about Henry’s woes, but really sorry to hear that, Henry. I hope you two can come up with some solutions that unfortunately is part of the business, but it sounds like you had a bad couple of days,

Henry:
Part of the game.

Kathy:
Never a dull moment.

Dave:
Well, that’s why it’s good to have friends in the industry and to have podcasts like this where you can commiserate and understand that it’s not just you. Everyone goes through these things at some point or another. Well, Kathy, James, Henry, thank you so much for being here today and thank you all so much for listening to this episode on the market. We’ll see you soon.

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Are you stuck with a problematic property? What if you could create thousands of dollars in monthly cash flow just by pivoting to the right investing strategy for your property and market? That’s exactly what today’s guest did, and if you stick around, she’ll show you how to repeat her success!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Aleea Stanton’s grandparents gave up their home to put her through college, so after graduating from law school, she saved up and bought them a house. Little did she know that this would ignite a passion for real estate investing and home renovation projects. Before long, Aleea had gone on to fix and flip eight houses—averaging $40,000 in profit per home—and even pocketed a whopping $200,000 on her most recent flip!

Despite the huge profit margins she earned with this lucrative strategy, Aleea decided to diversify her real estate portfolio with buy-and-hold investing. Now, she brings in an additional $3,000 in consistent monthly cash flow, all thanks to a combination of long-term and medium-term rentals. Tune in as Aleea shares her biggest successes and several critical mistakes to avoid!

Ashley:
Diversifying your assets is a good way to hedge against the difficult housing market, but knowing which strategy to use for each of your properties can have a major impact on your cashflow and success.

Tony:
Our guest today learned some invaluable lessons about the key differences between flipping houses and operating multifamily properties. And in this episode we’ll unpack how picking the right strategy for the right property is key to cash flowing in this market.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast and I am Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson.

Ashley:
Aleea, welcome to the show. Let’s start off with a little bit about your background on buying your first house and exactly why it was so important to you.

Aleea:
Of course. So I am from Buffalo, New York, born and raised. I was adopted by my grandparents. My mom, she had me at the age of 16, and my grandpa, her dad was like, you know what? You go finish school. I’ll raise Aaliyah. And so growing up with grandparents, it was really different because throughout middle school and high school, my parents on average were about in their late sixties, seventies. And my peers, their parents were in their forties and their fifties. So my grandparents couldn’t really move around comparable to my parents of my peers. And so outside of that, though, my childhood, my upbringing was fantastic. I grew up in the same house my entire life until I was 19 years old. There’s even little drawings of how tall I got every single birthday. And so it was really near and dear to me. I went to the same schools.
I knew everybody. By the time I got to high school for about 10, 12 years. When I was 19 years old, my grandparents had to give up their house to help put me through college. And that was really devastating. They lost their house. And so I had always made it my mission to one day buy them a house. And so I remember when I was in undergrad, I was just Googling when top 20 paying careers, and I landed on law. It’s not my passion, but I was like, okay, I don’t absolutely hate it. And I was like, you know what? I’m going to go to law school. And I applied and I got in. And now I’ve been working in New York City as a lawyer at a law firm for eight years. And I was able to save up enough money and during Covid when interest rates were very low at 3%, I jumped the gun and I purchased them a house.
That was my first property, my biggest purchase ever in life. I was super nervous, but I did it happy that I did it. Now I refer to it as the gift that keeps on giving, and I remember that there was a bath tub that was huge and they had to really climb over to get inside. I wanted to knock that down and create a walk-in shower for them. So I found a contractor. Reviews were good. We worked on a bathroom. It was a complete gut, made a huge, massive, beautiful walk-in shower for them. And I was like, you know what? I like this. My grandma also likes to cook. And the kitchen at the time was very outdated. And so I was like, you know what? I have some extra money. Let’s gut out this kitchen, give her some new countertops, cabinets, and the like.
And we did that too. And ever since then I was like, oh my God, I actually really enjoy remodeling. I really like making houses more functional and than what they currently are. And so I started watching Flip or Flop on HDTV. I watched every single episode and I was like, you know what? I could flip houses. Buffalo is one of those markets where you can still buy a house for 60, 70, 80 k, put some money into it and then make a good profit. And I was like, you know what? It looks like I just need the right team and I could do this. And so that’s kind of how I got into flipping.

Ashley:
There is a lot to unpack here, and I love this story of how you got started in real estate. So let’s start with that first house though with your grandparents. What was the process for you? Because living in New York City at the time when you bought them this house, correct?

Aleea:
Correct.

Ashley:
Okay. So how did you find contractors? How did you manage the rehab of these projects from afar?

Aleea:
So at that point, COVID had hit, and so we were working remotely. So I was able eventually to come back to Buffalo. And I remember posting, I joined a Facebook group on Buffalo, Buffalo real estate investors. And I remember posting, does anyone have a contractor that they recommend? And I got 20, 30 comments. And so I just started googling them and I started looking at reviews. I’m definitely a review girly before I go out to eat anywhere or do anything. I look at the reviews and I found a contractor who had decent reviews, who was available also immediately. And so I went with him and it was a good process. I was definitely very new to everything I remember at that if I could just go back in time and do some things over again, I would. But I remember I picked out three different finishes for the bathroom at one point, so it was a little bit of a hot mess, but this contractor was very patient.
He kind of walked me through the entire process and the handholding that I very much needed and we got the job done, so we had to work under pressure. It was a very quick turnaround. We were closing, my grandparents needed to move in right away. There was someone who wanted to rent out the current home that they were living in. So we were on a time crunch, but we got through it and I remember I would just bring my laptop and I was working remotely and I would just be there at the house as they were working all day long. I sat there for seven hours, eight hours a day, one to learn and also just to make sure that was my biggest investment. I wanted to make sure my guys were working nine to five or whatever, just putting in reasonable hours at the time. So yeah, I set up shop and I was there on location, on site.

Ashley:
That’s incredible to actually do that, to take the time to go and sit there. And I’m assuming it probably wasn’t the most comfortable place to sit in work while rehabbing a property.

Tony:
Leah, we want to get into the nitty gritty of you transitioning from this kind of passion project of a rehab into actually flipping from an intentional perspective. But I guess just give us the 30,000 foot view. How many flips have you done and just I guess have they been successful for you financially? Just give us the quick 30,000 foot picture of that.

Aleea:
Yeah, so I’ve done eight flips on average. In the beginning I was making around 40 K per flip, which in my mind was great. This again was like a side hustle. It was very passive income. My contractor really is just so trustworthy and he gets in and out and he does such a great job that that’s the reason why I was able to be so hands off and focus on my career in New York City being a lawyer. And so I made good money in all of my flips and I would say with the exception of one Flip, all of my flips had offers, multiple offers over asking within one week of us listing. And so it was great. I was like, this is some of the easiest money I’ve ever made. But I would say my key to success there again, is the contractor. And I learned that from the books that I read.
I really did my research and my homework before I purchased my first flip, the books I read, the TV shows that I watched, I knew that your contractor can make or break this whole thing. And so how I found my contractors an interesting story too, because I started just looking on Zillow at houses that were remodeled, and I saw one that just looked absolutely fantastic. The craftsmanship was really there, and I called that agent, and I’m sure as you guys know, agents love to talk. And so this agent went on talking about the property, about the flipping process, and then I was like, well, who did you work with? And he was like, oh, his name is so-and-so, and he gave me his name and the guy’s phone number. And so I’ve been working with the same contractor now since 2023 on every single project, and it’s been great. My last flip that I sold, I made 200 K in profit, so my average now 40 K in profit is higher.

Tony:
That’s amazing. And I think you hit on a very important point here, Lee, is that sometimes the best way to find a good contractor is going to the best agents in that town and seeing who their Rolodex of people are because they’ve been in this space, they’ve been buying and selling or in those transactions for a long time, they tend to know who’s good and maybe who isn’t all that great. So I love that strategy. We’re going to hear a little bit more about how Aaliyah is managing this flipping business and some of the pivots she’s made throughout her journey as well. But first, we’re going to take a quick break and then we’ll be right back with Aaliyah.

Ashley:
Okay, now let’s get back into the show. So Aaliyah, one of the biggest lessons you’ve learned was when moving from a flipping mindset to a long-term rental mindset, can you kind of share the story of your multifamily investment when you made this transition?

Aleea:
Absolutely. So again, I chuckle because I’m just like, only if I can just rewind the clock. I applied my flipping mentality to my rental portfolio and I lost money. I lost money because of that. And so to break this down, I purchased my first four unit long-term hold late 2024. I was working in New York City. I did not have time to come back to Buffalo to see the house in person. So I just sent my agent, I think lesson number one for my first four unit, my first multifamily, my first long-term hold, it was good for me to lay eyes on it. I should have laid eyes on it. So that’s lesson number one. Lesson number two is that we waived inspection. And so again, flipping single family homes, we usually waive inspection because it’s just so competitive in Buffalo to get a deal, you almost have to these days, but we have an idea, worst case scenario, if we waive inspection, we’ll have to update some electrical, update some plumbing, here’s our worst case scenario number, and we’re fully ready to go in and do that full job.
Whereas on a long-term hold, I should not have done that because one of the issues that came up later, and this was two months after I closed, I remember getting text messages from my tenants literally every other week that the power had went out. So the electricity was really outdated. This house was built in 19, I think oh eight. It was very old and they had fuses. So every time someone turned on a microwave or plugged in a vacuum cleaner, the power would go out and this kept happening. And so I had to update one of the panels for one of the units. Come to find out, in order to update one, you have to bring all of them up to code. And so I ended up having to update four service panels and there was no house panel, so I had to add a house panel.
So that was $18,000 right off the gate that I had an inspection an inspector would’ve flagged for me. And so that was a huge, huge lesson that I learned, and I wish I can go back in time and redo that. Another mistake that I made too was so one of the units was vacant when I closed on it. And so I remember walking through the unit, I was like, oh, this is so outdated. Mind you, it was move-in ready. It was move-in ready. They had granite countertops, but they were in great condition. They had nice cabinets, a little outdated, great condition. The floors were nice, but I was just like, you know what? I could use some quartz countertops here, some white shaker cabinets, we can do some new tile backsplash. And so we gutted the kitchen and we gutted the bathroom, and I ended up spending $16,000 rehabbing this place that really did not need to be rehabbed. And in the end, that only allowed me to increase rent by a hundred dollars. So it wasn’t a value add. And again, that’s just an example of me applying my flipping mindset to this rental portfolio. I should not have done that. I could have made some small cosmetic changes like paint, but to say, I don’t like granite countertops. Let me put in courts, that’s just like Ricky mistake.

Tony:
Aaliyah, your story of waving the inspections that totally get it right. Because like you said, as you invest in a market that’s a little bit more competitive sometimes that’s what you need to do to get that offer approved. I can share what I’ve done and Ashley, I want to get your opinion because you just happen to be in the same market. But there are some times when I buy from a wholesaler for example, they’re typically not going to give you an inspection contingency. But what I’ve done is I’ll still do an inspection that way. At least I get the report and I know what I’m stepping into. And my worst case scenario is that I lose whatever EMDI put down, and I have used that one time just like a bargaining chip, like, Hey, I’m just going to walk away. Who cares if you keep my 5K EMD? And we’ve been able to kind renegotiate. So that’s kind of been my approach is still do the inspection even if I waive it and then just say, okay, I got to walk away because of X, Y, and Z. Actually, for you, since you’re in that same market, how are you handling the inspections and due diligence while still remaining competitive?

Ashley:
So basically if it’s really dilapidated and I’m doing a huge remodel, I’m not getting an inspection because I’m ripping apart walls anyways, my scope of work is so big that I’m kind of accounting to replace most items anyways to update.

Aleea:
We’re throwing in very high EMDs to get these offers done. We’re throwing in 30, 40 at one point I threw in a 60 KEMD. It’s just so competitive, but I completely, I like that strategy and I will definitely use it if for whatever reason I am making an offer on a property and I can use a lower EMD and then I’ll just weigh the cost benefit analysis from there.

Tony:
Just one last point on that, and I know an investor now you got to be very, I think careful using this strategy. You can definitely burn some bridges, especially if you’re working with wholesalers in specific markets. But his thing was, dude, I’ll get my offer out, but the contract doesn’t become binding until my EMD is submitted. And he’s like, so I’ll just make sure that if I get a yes today at 12 o’clock by three o’clock today, my crew is out there walking the property and if I find anything wrong, then I just won’t submit my EMD and we’ll let the contract cancel out. So that’s another strategy, but obviously if you keep doing that to the same contractor or to the same wholesaler, eventually they’re going to be like, Hey dude, we’re not going to a contractor anything anymore. So you got to use that I think sparingly probably. So Aaliyah, you go through this process with the four unit, you learned some good lessons it sounds like. What’s your next move after that? Do you double down on that new strategy given that you kind of paid the cost to learn some new lessons or do you continue to pivot into different tactics?

Aleea:
I started off this real estate investing only doing flips, and that four unit, of course is my first rental. And then I really just started treating this as a business and I started doing my research and I learned and read up all about cost segregation. I am still working in my W2, and so I am getting killed with taxes. And so my plan is to slowly but surely acquire rental properties to help offset the capital gains tax that I’m getting hit with. And so yeah, that’s my plan going forward. I’m going to take those lessons that I learned and apply them on all my properties. I also realized too that in the beginning stages I was really just focused on design, the pretty stuff. I knew barely anything about electrical, plumbing, the condition of a roof. And so now what I’m doing is I’m just digging deeper and really doing my homework and I’m watching YouTube videos just where they follow an inspector who’s doing a home inspection for two hours, and I’m really just trying to learn the dirty stuff as they call it, so that I know when I’m considering a house and it only has four panels and it’s a four unit, I know that there has to be a fifth one for a house panel.
To me now looking back, I’m like, okay, that’s obvious. And I can count them as I’m at the house. I will of course not skip out on seeing it. So yeah, definitely I’m taking those lessons and I’m acquiring more rental properties and continuing to flip

Ashley:
Aliyah, can you share the numbers on this multifamily too, what the purchase price was, what your rents are, and then what your cashflow is on the property?

Aleea:
Yes. So I purchased the property for $580,000, much well over asking price, and we got the third unit that was vacant that I remodeled fully. We just got that rented. And so my cashflow now is around 600, 700 bucks. It’s not a lot. And I’ve had a lot of repairs. I’ve already put in so much money into this house. I’m not too upset though because it is in an area called Elmwood Village where I’m from, and it’s a fantastic area that attracts a lot of people. There’s lots of bars, there’s really good restaurants. It’s really one of the highlights of our town. And so I am really banking on appreciation here. So this is an appreciation and a cashflow play for me.

Ashley:
That definitely is a great area for appreciation to be there. So with this property, you have the four unit multifamily. Well, I definitely want to get into the piece where you’re going to be talking about how you’re finding these deals, but first we have to take a quick ad break and we’ll be right back after this.

Tony:
Alright, so we’re back with Aaliyah and Aaliyah. I think the million dollar question here is what are you doing to source your deals? I think for a lot of Ricky’s that are here, they understand the process of I’ve got to work with the contractor, I’ve got to make sure I’ve got a good scope of work, I’ve got to make sure I’m doing those things. But as you said before, the ad break, the money’s made when you buy. So what strategies, what tactics are you using right now to find good deals today?

Aleea:
So mostly I am relying on the MLS on what’s on Zillow. I am calling agents, I’m telling agents around town, if you bring a deal to me and we work together, I’ll also sell the deal with you. So they’re incentivized to also keep me on their radar as of right now, again, because it’s just so competitive here, I’m not getting the number of deals that I would like to per year. My team is ready to scale. And so what we just started doing is off market marketing. And so hopefully within the next month or two we should see some results from that and I should be able to acquire more deals. But so far it’s just been relying on what’s on EMLS and I play very close attention to that too.

Tony:
Lee, let’s break that strategy down just a little bit more because I think for a lot of rookies when they think about, Hey, finding a great deal, they don’t necessarily think MLS. So what is your specific strategy for sourcing these properties? Are you just going every day onto Zillow and just seeing what’s there and offering it list price or do you have a strategy where, hey, whatever it is, I’m going to offer 70% of that? What is your specific process for sourcing and offering on these on market deals?

Aleea:
That’s a great question. So I’ve been looking at properties that have been listed for a while. I usually won’t make an offer on a property that’s only been listed for a couple of days or a week because I just know likely they’re not going to accept my offer. It’s very rare that I give them an asking at asking offer anyways because there has to be enough margin for me to make money and then also for me to have a contingency in case anything goes wrong. So I usually target properties that have been sitting for a while. My best flip where I made the highest profit was a property that went under contract, but then it fell out of contract for whatever reason, and I was able to call that agent right when it went back up on the market. And so it was showing on EMLS that it had been listed for about 30 days.
And I contacted that agent and I said, Hey, what’s going on with this house? I’d like to really make an offer. How desperate are the owners right now to sell it? If you get this deal done for me, I will let you represent me on the sell side as well once my team is out of it. And so we were able to work together and I got the deal done. That’s a very interesting story in and of itself though. So to fast forward, I ended up working with a different agent when I sold that house.
The issue with incentivizing an agent and telling them that, Hey, we can work together once this house is flipped, is that now that agent, what he did was that he started pitching the house to his current clients. And so he had came to me about two, three weeks into the flip when we had closed and said that he had other clients who wanted to put an offer before we went to market and wanted me to design the house according to their taste and that we would get essentially what I would be listing the house for, which at that time I purchased the house for 500, we were going to list it for eight 30, and he was like, they’ll give you an offer for eight 30, but right now if you take it and then just work with them on the design. And so I can go more into that if that’s,

Ashley:
Yeah. Okay. So I’m thinking off the top of my head, pros are you already have an end buyer. Cons are they back out of the deal and they don’t have a good design taste. So what kind of happened in this situation? What did you decide on?

Tony:
Or the other piece is now you’re just almost like general contracting for this person and you’ve got to take their taste and their demands and their desires into account. So was it a happy ending for you? Did it turn out how you wanted it to?

Aleea:
It was so rocky and I lost so much sleep over this because the issue was was that this agent was really trying to get me to agree to this deal. He also said there was a contingency that he would have to sell his client’s current home in order for them to be able to purchase my home. And so he also said that he would be the only agent on the deal. So he was essentially getting triple quadruple commission on this whole thing. And I started to just question again, me being the lawyer and me being very risk averse, is this in my best interest? I know I’m going to do a great job on this property. It’s in a very highly desirable neighborhood. The design is going to be 10 out of 10. Is it in my best interest to just make a deal before it goes onto market or to show the house to the world and just see what happens?
And so I really went back and forth on that, and I remember it got to the point where I was just so confused and a little frustrated that I couldn’t come to a decision that I booked a last minute trip to Aruba, and I went to Aruba and I booked a last minute trip to Aruba and I flew out a couple hours later and I was at the hotel pool and I started just chatting to a lady and she was a real estate agent from upstate New York in Westchester. And I told her this story and she was like, oh, wow. She was like, no, you need to show this house to the world. It’s a beautiful house. You’re doing a great job. Those buyers, if they really want this house, they’re going to be around. You can kind of talk to the agent and get a sense of what their design style is and somehow try to incorporate that a little bit, but they will be around if they really want this house and if this neighborhood is that desirable as you sit.
So I was like, you know what? I’m like, that’s true. That makes sense. And so I remember I flew home and I told this agent, I was like, you know what? I’ve decided I don’t want to go through with the deal also because I’m working a full-time job. I don’t have time to handhold decision-making when it comes to the design process. And I was just having nightmares about waiting for a response on paint color cabinet styles handles, there’s tile backsplash, there’s so many decisions that you have to make along the way. And my team, we get in and out, right? It’s very seamless. And so I explained this all to the agent and he was like, you know what Leah? He was like, that’s right. I think that is the best decision here. We should list it a market. And then that gave me a real red flag because the way that he just flipped.
So all of a sudden I was like, wow, you have been trying to convince me for so long that I should just make this deal and now you just flip script. And so I started talking to another agent who sold a house in that neighborhood, a couple bucks down that blew all the other comps out the water. And so this agent put on a full presentation, was like, look, I’m the best person to do the job. I have the buyer’s list from that house, the comp for people who didn’t get the deal, who would be interested, and also just to let you know, do you know that that agent was part owner of that house? And I was like, what? I was like, no, he never told me. She was like, what? He never disclosed that to you? I said, absolutely. He did not. So I remember calling him back, I was like, Hey, are you part owner of this house?
You never said that. He was like, oh, well, it’s any MLS. It’s on the MLS, you should have known. And I’m like, I’m a lawyer. I’m not an agent. I don’t have access to the MLS. So I would not have known that unless you had told me. And he was like, oh, I just thought because you’re a sophisticated client that you would’ve known. And I’m like, how would I have known? And so I was like, you know what? I’m so sorry, but I’m not going to work with you. I’m going to go a different direction. At that point, I just really couldn’t trust anything he said. And even that decision alone was really, really hard for me to do because Buffalo is a very small town and reputation matters. And so I kind of had given him my word that I would sell this house with him. But it was just so many things that had happened along the way that I was just like, this is not in my best interest. And at the end of the day, this is a business here. And so I let that agent go and I worked with a different agent and I got an offer for nine 90 that I accepted. So we were going to list it for eight 30, and I ended up selling the house for nine 90.

Ashley:
There’s two things I want to mention. First, we have to address the fact that you flew to Aruba to talk to someone that probably lived a couple hours from you in New York City that gave you great advice, just the way the world works, coincidences like that. And then the second thing is how that second agent put together a pitch to you. What a great concept as if you are looking to sell a flip is to, instead of just picking the agent you’ve always worked with or the most convenient option, actually going out and looking who sold properties in that area, if they have a list of potential buyers already. And also I’m curious, how was the experience working with that agent? Do you think that part of the reason you got top dollar was from the agent helping you sell this deal?

Aleea:
Yeah, absolutely. That agent, I mean, that was my first time working with an agent where they put together this whole pitch. And so when she was like, let’s meet on Zoom, I’m like, okay. And then it was a whole slideshow almost, and this agent had really done their homework, and now I can tell that agents who do their homework versus the agent who’s just looking for a quick deal, that agent knew the area extremely well and just had all the information and what buyers are looking for. And that agent was very involved in the whole process when it came to decisions on staining and restoring the hardwood floors, for example. They came in and she was like, buyers really like this type of brown, not this orangey type of brown, the houses in this neighborhood. I know what they have, do this. And every piece of her advice was just spot on.
And I definitely contribute the success and effect that we got this offer for nine 90 because of the team that I was working with. And that is a very valuable lesson. It’s like on one hand, I want to incentivize the agent who I’m trying to get a deal done with to bring my deal to the top of the pile where he can potentially get both sides of the commission, but at the same time, I want to work with the best agent who I know can do the best job at selling my property. And that was the decision I had to make.

Tony:
Aaliyah, I mean, what an incredible story and kudos to you for having the courage to kind stand up for yourself and for your own business. I feel like sometimes as a Ricky investor, we can sometimes get swayed by the people that we feel have more experience than we do. But kudos for you for kind of seeing through that and making the right decision for yourself. I want to talk a little bit about the off market, but just one last thought for me on the deal finding side, how this conversation initially started. But I know two investors who do incredibly well. They invest in South Florida and the first, I don’t know, two years of their business, they only did on market deals, and they had a very kind of regimented process where they hired a va, they trained this VA how to look through Zillow, all these different websites and kind of the criteria what the buy box looked like.
And then they had a templated email that the VAs would send out with a pay if the asking prices x were always going to offer some percentage of that somewhere around Y. And they just had a team of VAs every single day, all day sending out these offers, and that’s how they got all of their deals for the first two years of their business. So just a reminder to all the rookies that are out there that it’s not a bad deal just because it’s on the MLS. I feel like social media is, so many have other people, they just like Poo P on the MLS, but there are good deals to be had if you make the right offer. So just a reminder for all of our rookies that are listening, but going back to the off market thing, the last question from Ilia is you said you’re kind of experimenting a little bit with the off market strategies. What does that look like for you? Are you doing mailers? Are you cold calling? What’s strategy are you leveraging?

Aleea:
This is actually another interesting story. If I take a step back, my one flip that I did not get an offer on within the first week, it was when we listed it on the market right before Thanksgiving, it’s very cold in this market. I didn’t get any offers that I had liked, and so I decided to rent it instead, and I was renting it or I listed it for rent for $2,700. My mortgage at the time, what I owed to my hard money lender was about 2,400 a month. I was just going to rent it, and then hopefully when that person leaves, it’ll be a better season and I’ll get the offers that I had. I was contacted by an agent who works on behalf of insurance companies, and the insurance company was looking to rehouse a family whose house was destroyed in a fire, and he told me that it would be a midterm rental agreement about a minimum of 10 months, and that the insurance company usually pays higher than asking would I be interested.
And I was like, of course. And I was like, well, how much? He was like, well, how about $4,000 a month? And I was at that point I thought this was a scam. And I was like, yeah, definitely. Of course. He was like, okay, well let me talk to the insurance company. I’ll hang up and I’ll call you back. So I remember I called some of the agents that I worked with. I was like, Hey, have you heard about this? Have you heard of this guy? They were like, oh yeah, these deals come up once in a blue moon. He called me back, he was like, we can get the deal done for $4,000 a month. We’ll move this family in however they want to know if we can keep the furniture. That was a state, it was furniture that I was renting for my stager.
And so I remember I was like, oh yeah, of course. And I was so excited. So I’m calling my stager. I’m like, Hey, is there any way that I can extend the time that this furniture is here? I’ll pay you, blah, blah, blah. She was like, Aliyah, I really have some of my best pieces in your house. I’m booked back to back to back. I really just need this. So I was like, crap. So I called the insurance agent back. I was like, I’m so sorry, but we can’t keep the stage furniture. He was like, well, the insurance company has a vendor that they work with to furnish it, but it would take about two weeks, three weeks for that furniture to arrive. These folks, they want to move in right away. They’ve been cooped up in a hotel room with their dog and their newborn. He was like, would you be willing to furnish the house? If so, we can give you $5,000 a month instead of $4,000 a month. And I was just like, this is absolutely insane. And I did the math. If it’s a minimum of 10 months, that would be an extra thousand dollars a month, $10,000. That’s probably around how much it would take for me to furnish the house. So it would be free furniture, and then I can use that furniture and just list this property as a midterm rental. And so I did that.

Ashley:
Or you could even sell the furniture too on Facebook marketplace too, and recoup some of that cost too. Yeah,

Aleea:
Exactly. And so that agent, he actually also co-owns a lead company, and so they generate a list of leads, they skip trace those leads, and then they sell that list. And so he approached me. He was like, Hey, we got a fantastic deal done. Would you like to talk about other partnerships we could possibly do? And so I purchased some leads for him. We’re targeting pre-probate and missed mortgage payments as well. And so we’re going to use that list. I’m going to hire a cold caller. We’re also going to try to do some text messages and we’re going to test trial and error this thing out and see how many leads we can get with this.

Tony:
Wow. You’ve got some amazing stories.

Ashley:
Yeah. Well, Leo, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Real Estate Rookie. Can you let everyone know where they can reach out to you?

Aleea:
Absolutely. So you can find me on Instagram. It’s Lee, LEES, as in Sam, Sheri, CHER. I am on Instagram. You can DM me there and we can talk. I’d love to share advice or get advice from you if you have any that you’d like to share with me or to work together.

Ashley:
Thank you so much. And if you want to become more involved in the rookie community, you can join the Real Estate Rookie Facebook group or also message in the Real Estate Rookie Instagram account. We now have to, you can send us a DM or comment on one of our posts or reels. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony. And we’ll see you guys on the next episode of Real Estate Rookie.

 

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Imagine getting paid to buy rental properties. Well, it’s more than possible, and today’s investor proves it. After spending months looking for the “perfect BRRRR” property, Jon Kessler stumbled upon it and, through a series of fortunate events, got paid $50,000 to buy a cash-flowing rental property. And guess what? This wasn’t a one-time occurrence. Jon repeated this strategy multiple times to build his real estate portfolio with little money and reach financial freedom in just 11 years!

So what is the “perfect BRRRR” strategy, and how can you repeat it to get paid at the closing table, just like Jon? Today, Jon is walking us through his decade-long real estate investing journey, starting with being tens of thousands of dollars underwater on his home in 2008 to getting paid to buy rental properties, building an off-market lead business, and eventually getting to his true goal: financial freedom and truly passive income.

Jon faced a LOT of ups and downs. He started with zero investing experience, had non-paying tenants, a home with negative equity, and built his real estate portfolio all while working a full-time job and raising kids. Think you can’t invest in real estate in your situation? Jon will prove you couldn’t be more wrong!

Dave:
The perfect brrrr. You may have heard of it, but only a few investors have ever actually pulled it off. Today we’re speaking with one of those investors who not only executed a perfect Burr deal, but pulled out an additional $50,000 more than what he originally invested. Hey everyone, it’s Dave Meyer here. I’m the head of real estate investing at BiggerPockets and the host of the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast where we teach you how to achieve financial freedom through real estate. And today’s guest has done just that. We’ve gotten an investor story with a guy named John Kessler from Baltimore, Maryland on deck for you. And one thing I really like about John’s story is that his investing career has three distinct stages. If you’ve listened to any of the shows recently where we’ve had Chad Carson on as a guest most recently, episode 1 0 7 2, you’ll hear Chad’s framework where he talks about having a starter phase, a builder or growth phase, and then at the end, sort of a harvester phase.
And John’s career follows this framework and path. In his first six years, he acquired five properties. Then in the next five years in his builder phase, he scaled up to 19 units, including a wholesaling business, and that’s when he did that bur deal where he was able to pull out more than a hundred percent of the capital he invested. Now, 12 years later, John has achieved financial freedom and is investing more passively so he has time to spend with his family. So as we hear John describe how he built his real estate business, I encourage each of you to listen and think about which stage of investing you are in right now, and whether you’re prioritizing your time and your money accordingly, or if maybe you need to readjust. Alright, let’s bring on John Kessler. John, welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Jon:
Absolutely excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely. So give us a little bit of background. Tell us a little bit about yourself and why you first started looking into real estate in the first place. But I think it was like 10, 11 years ago now.

Jon:
Yeah, it was a while. So my background is I’m in tech. I still have a full-time W2 job, married father of three. So real estate’s not my full-time thing. It has always been a side hustle, but got my start a little bit by accident. My first experience with an investment property was, it was a primary residence that I turned into a rental lot of necessity. So what happened was in 2006, I bought my first house for myself, and I was a single guy at the time, and it was this little two bed, one bath, 900 square foot house, and it was plenty of room when it was just me, but six years later, married, we have a 1-year-old, we have another one on the way and we’re just outgrowing it. So the wife and I decided it was time to upgrade. And the problem is in 2008, there was a little bit of a real estate correction.

Dave:
Heard about it.

Jon:
Yeah, yeah. I was so far underwater on that first property, it just would’ve completely wiped out my down payment. So the only option was to give being a landlord a try, and that’s how I kind of got my start.

Dave:
Wow. So you are the prototypical, we call ’em accidental or reluctant landlords. You never sought out being a landlord. You didn’t come to this by financial freedom. It just was necessity.

Jon:
Yeah.

Dave:
Do you mind telling us a little bit about that primary residence? What’d you buy the property for In 2006?

Jon:
Yeah, so this should give you an idea of how inflated prices were. So I bought that house for $150,000 in 2006. I financed 100% of it, which is something you could actually do at the time. It’s not always cracked up to be. It actually wasn’t that good of a thing. Two years later after the crash, I think I would’ve been lucky to sell it for about 90,000. So I was underwater about 60 grand, which was almost 50% within two years.

Dave:
Wow. I’m sorry to hear that. So fortunately, it sounds like though, when you were looking to buy your second primary residence in 2012, you had saved up enough money that you could put your down payment on this new primary, but you had to hold onto the other one. You didn’t want to have to come out of pocket to pay the bank, right?

Jon:
Yeah, that wasn’t a choice. I could have sold it and been homeless or go back to renting, or I could have bought a house. There was no in-between.

Dave:
So what was that like becoming a landlord with a young family working full time?

Jon:
I got really lucky in hindsight, looking back, knowing what I know now, my original tenant was really easy. It was a friend of a friend. She kept the place nice. She paid on time. She only called when there was a real issue. So she honestly really helped me forget that I had this rental property.

Dave:
Oh, that’s good.

Jon:
Yeah, zero cashflow. I was renting it out for pretty much what the mortgage was. I was fine with that. I wasn’t trying to make money. I was just trying to kick the can down the road a few years and then figure it out.

Dave:
Well, it sounds like that worked and you were at least able to kick the can down the road. How did you go from this sort of accidental landlord position to actively trying to grow business?

Jon:
So I still didn’t really have any intention of being a real estate investor, but about two years later, in 2014, I had managed to save up some money again. And the, I dunno, kind of fear of being a landlord was gone. Even though I didn’t have a ton of experience, it now seemed like an option. And I was already putting money in the stock market through a 401k through work, and I still didn’t know what I was doing, but I knew enough to be able to look at 2014 prices and say if I just bought a similar house but rented it out for the same amount, instead of breaking even, I’d be making, I don’t know, maybe four or 500 bucks a month. There’s something here.

Dave:
Prices were still below where they were in 2006.

Jon:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I called the realtor who sold me my second house because I knew that he had been a landlord just from talking to him from when I bought my second house. And I asked for his advice, what to buy, where to buy, and he helped me find something. So

Dave:
Yeah. That’s great.

Jon:
Yeah, it was even in the same neighborhood as the first one. Turns out I kind of got lucky with that location. Second one was a three bed, one bath town home, same neighborhood. And it was turnkey. It was fully renovated, nothing high end, but it was well-maintained. It was fine. Move in ready. Great. And I paid 108,000 for it. That was the purchase

Dave:
Price. And how did that landlord experience compare to your ideal tenant? In the first one,

Jon:
I got lucky again, but in a different way. Still didn’t know what I was doing, didn’t have good tenant screening in place, and I moved somebody in who on paper I never should have placed. Luckily they didn’t really cause damage to the property. They didn’t mess it up, but they did stop paying rent pretty early on. So I got to go through that experience was lucky enough I didn’t actually have to evict them. They moved out willingly, but got the other end of the spectrum with that second tenant,

Dave:
Man. So why’d you keep going after this? I’m always curious to hear these things. Everyone takes lumps early in their career, it just happens. I’m always just want to understand sort of the mentality that you approach. You had a bunch of other stuff going on, you had a couple of challenging situations early on. What drove you to build and scale from here?

Jon:
Well, I’m not just saying that because I’m here, but shortly after buying that second property, I stumbled on the BiggerPockets podcast and feel like I started to get a real education there, started learning a little bit more about how to all the stuff manage a property. I got exposed to the BER method and that kind of just opened my eyes to what is actually possible.

Dave:
Honestly, it’s not that dissimilar story that we hear a lot. I myself, I didn’t know about BiggerPockets. I did my first two deals and was managing seven units at that point before I really discovered the podcast or working at BiggerPockets. And then was like, oh my God, I have been doing everything completely wrong. But luckily I was still turning into profit, doing okay, having done everything wrong. And that was pretty exciting to me, that man, I can get so much better at this. And thankfully it did. So it sounds like discovering the Bur method is sort of what put you in another gear in your investing. Is that right?

Jon:
Yeah, it was a combination of that, and it was also the fact that I had this family, now we actually have three kids and we kind of had ’em back to back to back. So there’s maybe a four year gap between one and two. And I was working a much more demanding job than I am now, and I spent a lot of time in the office away from the family, and it really started to bother me that I didn’t have more time with them. So
Between that and listening to BiggerPockets, I started to plan and exit strategy, so to speak, which didn’t quite work. I still have a W2 job now. It’s kind of by choice, not because I have to. When was this? Around 2018, I felt like I had enough capital built back up to try it again. And this was my first attempt at a bur same neighborhood, another three bed, one bath town home. This one really didn’t need a ton of work, mostly cosmetic. I bought it for about 92,000, and at the time I was still doing a lot of the work myself, but I think I put maybe seven or $8,000 worth of materials in it.

Dave:
Oh, that’s not bad. I mean,

Jon:
Yeah,

Dave:
For a cheap house it’s still a lot, but it’s not bad.

Jon:
Yeah, yeah. No, it wasn’t bad at all. And it appraised for about 1 25 when I was done. So I ended up being able to pull out a little bit of my capital, not all of it.

Dave:
And you got hooked?

Jon:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That proved the concept to me. I was ready. So I mean, it was later on that year, I did my second one, I got a little more aggressive. I also hired a general contractor because it was taking too much of my time away from the family to do the work myself. So I finally started hiring people.

Dave:
But it’s kind of beneficial, right to do it yourself a little bit at first because then at least you know what you’re looking for and what some of the pitfalls are going to be and where the challenges lie.

Jon:
And I also quickly realized that I really wasn’t saving money doing it myself, because how fast can a contractor remodel a bathroom versus me? It’s going to take me three months, a weekends a hundred percent. And if I had just worked my regular job, I would’ve came out hugely ahead.

Dave:
You only save money doing things yourself if you’re actually good at it. If you’re not good at it, you’re losing money and time and efficiency and you’re not scaling. We’ve talked about it many times on the show, but it’s worth repeating as many times as is necessary. Only do these things yourself if you are confident and able to do them.

Jon:
Yeah, I agree. Even now I’m in tech. I’m pretty good with a lot of different tech related things, and I still outsource a lot of tech aspects of investing to other people.

Dave:
All right. I want to hear how you scaled up to your next B John, but first we need to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back, everyone to the BiggerPockets podcast. We’re here with investor John Kessler talking about how he went from accidental landlord to doing his first burr. So back to your story, John, you did your first burr, you did it yourself. What did you do next? How did you sort of develop a more scalable business model for yourself?

Jon:
So what happened? I did two burs. They were both off the MLS in 2018. I was able to get most of my capital, maybe half the most back out. And in 2019, I had this idea in my head that I had to do a perfect bur. So I started passing on deals where I was going to be leaving capital, and I just wanted to accelerate the velocity, kind of had the opposite effect. I think I was being too picky.

Dave:
I just want to explain to everyone, John, before you do what a perfect burr is. So BURR stands for buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat. Basically, you buy a property, you put additional capital into it to improve that. You rent it out and get a stable tenant in there. Then you refinance it. And why you refinance it is to pull some of your capital out. Ideally, you’re able to take out at least your renovation costs, maybe some of your initial down payment as much as possible. And the term quote perfect bur is when you’re able to take out 100% of your equity. So if John on a deal was to invest a hundred grand in both acquisition costs and renovation costs, then when he did a cash out refi after doing the renovation, should he be able to take out that a hundred thousand dollars? That’s a perfect burr. Sorry, John, just want to explain that, but please go on.

Jon:
That’s what I thought I had to do because I didn’t really have a clearly defined goal, and I just started to get obsessed with this concept of a perfect burr. So it took me a while. It took me about seven or eight months to find another deal that I thought worked. I actually took an assignment from a wholesaler. This was the first wholesale assignment that I ever took. This is a wholesaler met at a meetup, and this was kind of a sign of the times. Shortly thereafter, I found out that I was not going to be able to close on that anytime soon because Covid happened, and this was a foreclosure auction deal, and they put a moratorium on fore closures. So I didn’t know when I was going to be able to close on this deal. I had this contract and it was just kind of held in limbo indefinitely.

Dave:
And did you have earnest money down?

Jon:
Yeah, I put down a pretty sizable deposit. It was about $13,000 actually, with the title company.

Dave:
Oh, wow. And so that

Jon:
Was just

Dave:
Sitting there.

Jon:
That was just sitting there with the title company in escrow, and I was also responsible for the property taxes of the property until it closed, until it was ratified.

Dave:
Oh no. Okay.

Jon:
Well, that deal actually turned into one of the best deals I ever did because of the moratorium.

Dave:
Tell me about it. I want to hear that.

Jon:
I was not able to close on that property for two years. So that’s how long the moratorium lasted, and it was lifted in late 2021. And between 2019 and 2021, property values went up significantly and interest rates dropped. So I had that under contract for $120,000. This was a single family detached and it was a four bedroom, and I knew that I could turn it into a five bedroom, which is really good for voucher programs, which I do a fair bit of. I closed on it. I actually got a private loan from a coworker. He lent me around $190,000 for the purchase. So I was actually able to take about almost $50,000 cash home from the closing table from the purchase I did my remodel, the remodel was about $45,000. So I used pretty much roughly the cash I took home. And then when I placed a tenant and refinanced, it appraised for $330,000. What?

Dave:
Oh my

Jon:
God. Yeah. So I pulled about $50,000 out of it more than I put into it.

Dave:
Oh my God.

Jon:
Yeah, it was incredible. And that’s a 30 year fixed. It’s a four and a half percent loan, a monthly payment with taxes and insurance is 1600.

Dave:
Wow.

Jon:
And today it was rented out for about 27 50 right now a

Dave:
Month. Oh my God. Wow. They need to come up with a word other than perfect bird. That’s better than perfect, right?

Jon:
Yeah,

Dave:
Just pulling a hundred percent out is not perfect. If you can, there’s a more perfect version that you have invented, John by taking out 50 grand more than what you put into the deal. It’s incredible.

Jon:
Yeah. All you need is a pandemic and to delay closing by two years and it’s easy.

Dave:
I mean, how worried were you during those two years though? Were you seeing the property value go up? I mean, starting mid-summer 2020, things were already starting to go a little bit crazy.

Jon:
Originally, I was a little grouchy that my $13,000 earnest money deposit was tied up. And I was also frustrated because it had taken me so long to find a deal that I thought was good enough. But I moved on. I didn’t wait for that to close. I moved on to other deals. But then as time went on, I just got more and more excited for this deal. Just I saw these numbers, I was like just making money I didn’t even own in the property. It was fantastic.

Dave:
Yeah, that’s unbelievable. Wow, that’s pretty cool. I just want to take a little detour here. I’m curious about the philosophy. Looking back on it, do you regret waiting to try and find a perfect bur, or would you have been better off just doing some solid deals and not holding out?

Jon:
I believe I would’ve been better just doing solid deals I’m holding out, and I had no real reason to wait for a perfect burr. I just got it in my head that that’s what I needed. Yeah. Yeah. It was actually a episode of BiggerPockets that kind of got me unstuck. David Green was talking, and this wasn’t even the subject of the episode. He just, how was your weekend? He is like, oh, yeah, it’s great. I just got an appraisal on one of my properties. I’m only going to leave $12,000 in it. And I thought to myself, wait, you can do that. That’s allowed

Dave:
That It wasn’t perfect to be less of money in the deal.

Jon:
I just needed to hear an expert say, it’s okay. Of course. And then I sat down and put pen to paper and actually, what is my goal? And then I realized I could afford to leave a little bit more in some of these deals.

Dave:
Absolutely. And the reason I bring it up is because I hear this mentality a lot these days because burr is harder. It’s always going to be harder when you’re not in this just rapidly appreciating environment and honestly, unusually, rapidly appreciating environment that it’s always going to be harder to be able to pull a hundred percent of your equity out. But I’ve done a burr in the last year, I still think they could work. I’m not a perfect one, but I guess I’ve never really seen that as my goal. And I witnessed a lot of investors sort of falling into a similar trap that you did, John, where it’s kind of like you are expecting this perfect situation where in today’s day and age, you might just need to be a little bit more patient for your second deal or your third deal and just do the deal that’s in front of you. It’s not for everyone. Some people might want to hold out, but I do witness a lot of people wanting to hit that grand slam, but might be missing triples or home runs in the meantime, holding out for those kinds of deals.

Jon:
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think it gets easier. You accumulate more rentals and get more cashflow, it gets a little easier to not pull off your capital back out.

Dave:
That’s true. Once you have more irons in the fire, if you will, it is not like you need to get a hundred percent out. So you could do that second deal to do that third deal when it’s your eighth deal, your 10th deal, it’s a little bit easier to just slow down. That’s definitely true. So in the meantime, John, when you were waiting for the moratorium to come up, were you doing any other deals?

Jon:
Yes, I did one more off the MLS later that year, and that was a perfect bur

Dave:
Nice two.

Jon:
Yeah. I mean, there were some that went the other way too. So they’re not all, they’re not perfect.

Dave:
Good to know. Yeah,

Jon:
Yeah, yeah. So that was my last deal that I ever did on the MLS even through today. That’s when I realized I could start to leave a little bit more money, and I wanted to try to accelerate, and even though I’m off the idea of doing a perfect burr, I still saw the MLS as being a little too competitive. So I started networking with wholesalers a bit more, and one day I put a post on Facebook and this investor group for locals just kind of describing what I was looking for. And within I would say 10 minutes, a wholesaler replied with a contract he had signed less than a half hour before I made that post, and I ended up taking three assignments from him in less than a month.

Dave:
Wow.

Jon:
So as a very well-timed kind of fortuitous Facebook post.

Dave:
So these were for burrs?

Jon:
Yes.

Dave:
Okay. And how much better of a deal do you think you got because you went with a wholesaler than for buying an MLS deal?

Jon:
So what happened was, actually, let me ask you this. You probably know where I’m going with this across all three deals, how much do you think I paid in assignment fees total?

Dave:
I mean, just guessing based on what your deals were costing? I don’t know, 20 grand across the three,

Jon:
I paid $80,000 in assignment fees, eight zero across three deals. And I wasn’t upset about it, but I was jealous. But they worked, the numbers worked. I was able to pull out a lot of my money on all three of these deals. I was actually happy that this wholesaler made this much money off of me because I figured he was going to keep bringing me deals. Like, this is great. To

Dave:
Be candid, I’ve never bought a deal from a wholesaler. I’ve looked at a lot of deals from wholesalers, but I was figuring what the price point of the houses you were looking at, you were paying five 10 grand maybe per assignment fee.

Jon:
I don’t know what his secret sauce was. He was getting incredible deals. Incredible deals. These were so far below what they could have sold for in the MLS. It was incredible.

Dave:
I mean, to be fair to the wholesaler, you were willing to pay up?

Jon:
Oh yeah.

Dave:
I averaged 25, 20 $7,000 per assignment because the deal was still so good that it was worth it. Even when you were paying that large assignment fee. I mean, that is correct. If that wholesaler is creating value and you’re willing to pay for that value, I mean, why not?

Jon:
Absolutely. And I really did get probably more than half my capital out on each one. This was working. I would’ve kept buying them from him, but we just never made another one work. So those were the only three I bought from him. But when I saw those assignment fees, I thought, I don’t really know how to go get my own off market deals, but for $80,000, I bet I can figure it out. So that’s what I started doing. I hopped on BiggerPockets and I just found someone who kind of owned a direct mail company, and I reached out and got their advice, and I just started sending letters

Dave:
A

Jon:
Couple months later.

Dave:
So you were basically like, yeah, this was great. I found these three great deals, but I’d rather do these deals and not pay $80,000 for it. Okay. Well, that’s good for you. I am still waiting for the part of the story. John, where you work less, it seems like you just keep taking on more and more stuff.

Jon:
Yeah, the way I went about it was definitely not the ideal way. If you’re trying to work less, I did it the hardest way possible.

Dave:
All right. Well, I want to hear more about how you started a wholesaling business, but we do have to take another break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back everyone. We’re here with John Kessler. When we left off, John was telling us how he had just paid $80,000 in assignment fees for three wholesale deals that he purchased, but then he was motivated to, it sounds like you started your own wholesaling company, right? John, tell us how you went about that.

Jon:
Yeah, so again, I just didn’t know what I was doing. I went on BiggerPockets. I found someone running a direct mail company. I had no particular reason for choosing direct mail. I was just aware of it,

Dave:
A popular strategy.

Jon:
We hopped on a call. He kind of gave me some advice, and I just started pulling data and sending mail. And at the time, I actually did not intend to be a wholesaler, but once you start marketing, you never know what you’re going to get. And people started calling with properties that didn’t fit my particular criteria, but you don’t want to waste marketing dollars. So I ended up starting to do some assignments too.

Dave:
Okay. So yeah, originally you were just looking for yourself. You just wanted deal flow for your own properties. What were you looking for? More burrs?

Jon:
Yeah, more burrs. I was just sticking with what I knew. The neighborhoods I knew, these little three bedroom town homes seemed to be working out really well for me. So that’s all I was mailing. It was a pretty small amount of records at the time, maybe 800 letters a month, and it was working, the phone was ringing.

Dave:
How long did it take you for the phone to start ringing?

Jon:
I mean, probably the day the mail hit, it started ringing.

Dave:
Okay.

Jon:
Wow. I mean, there’s a delay between when you send letters and when they land, but it was less than a week after I put my order in. I just started getting calls and I got my first deal within a month from that first batch.

Dave:
Wow. That’s fast because they’re talking to a lot of people who do this direct to seller, and usually it’s three months, six months, nine months of grinding. So just for everyone listening, that is normal. It is normal for it to take a while, and that is something you need to know is that you might not hit it immediately. Are you still doing this? Are you still running the wholesaling operation?

Jon:
Not the same way. And it was similar to when I first tried out Burr and it worked. I tried direct mail and it worked, and I got hooked, and I just started throwing gas on the fire kind of going faster than the, well, I had no systems faster than I should have based on what I had in place, and I was in such a hurry. I started just from marketing channel to marketing channel and just throwing more and more marketing dollars in it. And it was working. It just wasn’t optimized. So it was very labor intense and I was doing all aspects of it. I didn’t have any real help with it.

Dave:
And you were still working full-time, right?

Jon:
Correct. Working full-time. Still have three school aged kids at home, and I wouldn’t recommend anyone else do it the way I did because I was definitely burning myself out.

Dave:
Yeah. It sounds a little bit like you were sort of getting away from the original intent of starting this business.

Jon:
Very much so. Very much so. I was working all day family in the afternoon and weekends. I was on the phone looking at properties, managing contractors. I was still self-managing my rentals. After a while, I hired a property manager and he also helped me with construction management. So that did help me free me up quite a bit. But the amount of marketing I was doing at the time was still a lot. So I did that for about two years, and I scaled from five units to 19 units over those two years. And I also whole sailed a few dozen contracts, and I tried to do a few flips along the way. Those didn’t go great, but I tried it out. And early 2023, I finally realized I need to pump the brakes. I’m burned out also out of money, which is important too.

Dave:
Yeah, it has a way of slowing you down when you run out of money. But it sounds like you were ready sort of mentally to slow down.

Jon:
Yeah, I was ready to slow down. It was hard to go from being that active to nothing overnight. So it kind of took me a while to kind figure out how to relax. And that was in 2023, and I still wanted to do something, but I wasn’t sure what that next step was going to be. So what I ended up doing was I started to focus on more passive avenues and partnerships where maybe I can lend my expertise and money, but not my time. And that’s what I’m doing now. So just to give you an example, I’m still wholesaling, but I’m doing it with partners now. I was just sending mail in their markets and the leads would go directly into their systems and they would take it from there. I was passive after I sent mail, and we would just split it on the backend if it worked out.

Dave:
So yeah, that’s generating more active income for you on top of your W2, I mean 19 units an amazing accomplishment. Congratulations. Are you feeling good about that and just sitting on those right now?

Jon:
Yes, I am. If I come across another rental that works, I’ll buy it. I’m just not out there aggressively looking. I still talk to wholesalers and evaluate deals. It’s just rates are in the mid to high sevens right now. It’s just hard to make things pencil out. And I’ve also learned that expenses on these rentals are a lot higher than I ever anticipated them to be. So I’m even more conservative in my cashflow estimates than I used to be.

Dave:
Yeah, I think that that’s very wise. Do you think that’s just because of the nature of the homes that you’re buying or just all rentals?

Jon:
I think it’s probably both. I think people have a tendency to underestimate, but these are also 90 to a hundred years old, so there is CapEx. It’s also what I would consider maybe a B minus neighborhood. And I also deal with a lot of voucher and Section eight tenants. And I’m not saying that all voucher tenants will beat up your property, but in my experience, the average voucher tenant is a little rougher on your property. You also have those annual section eight inspections and you have to fix more things than you would with a market tenant. So that kind of thing all affects the bottom line.

Dave:
So how are you feeling then, about your portfolio right now? You set out to earn some passive income to spend more time with your family. Do you feel like you’ve achieved that?

Jon:
I do. The original goal, even though I didn’t go about it a very smart way, was to get to a level where if we had to, we could live off of passive income and we’re there. I could today stop working and just live off the cashflow. It would not be a lifestyle that we wanted. We would have to budget all that stuff, but we could do it if we had to.

Dave:
That’s amazing. Congratulations. That’s so cool.

Jon:
Thank you. That is a very comforting feeling, just to know. It’s almost like I have a second adult in the house working full time, so that’s how it feels.

Dave:
So to help our audience level set and set expectations, how long did it take you from starting as a somewhat accidental landlord to be in that place of comfort that you’re in now?

Jon:
I would turn the clock back to the second rental. That’s when I found BiggerPockets, and that’s when I first had the idea that I was going to achieve financial freedom from that second rental. It’s been exactly 11 years from the first rental. It’s been like 14.

Dave:
Unbelievable. Good for you. Well, I did this math recently where I was talking about almost anyone. If you just are diligent about it, regardless of sort of your income level, if you really stick with it, like 10 to 15 years is a realistic timeframe for people. And it sounds like you’ve sort of fallen right into that timeframe as well. And I don’t know about you, but for me, that timeframe went very quickly. I know for some people it seems like, oh, I can’t wait that long, but it’s fun, it’s engaging, it’s busy, but it’s absolutely worth it, at least in my opinion.

Jon:
Yeah, it was very stressful at times, and it was a lot of fun. Most of the time I had a really good time doing it.

Dave:
That’s great.

Jon:
Yeah.

Dave:
Well, thank you so much for joining us. John, before we go, any last thoughts or ideas about what the future holds for you and your portfolio before we go?

Jon:
Yeah, I’m pivoting, like I said, more passive direction and the future is probably going to be a lot of syndications as a limited partner, doing that through a self-directed 401k now. And I really like just receiving a check and not having to deal with tenant issues. That’s a lot of fun.

Dave:
It’s pretty great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s great. It is kind of the traditional sort of arc of an investor, right? You do all this active stuff, you try a lot of things, and then 10, 15 years in, you’re good enough enough to be able to do these LPs, passive investments. I started doing it, I guess, exactly 10 years into it. It’s pretty great. I really like having a balance.

Jon:
Yep. Likewise.

Dave:
Have you done any yet?

Jon:
I did. I just put some money into one. It’s my first one probably about five months ago from a self-directed 401k, and so far it’s working out

Dave:
Multifamily?

Jon:
Yep. Commercial multifamily. It’s south in Indiana.

Dave:
Oh, cool. Awesome. Well, good luck to you. And yeah, if anyone wants to learn more about Syndications Passive investing, we don’t have time to get into it now, but BiggerPockets has a whole podcast called Passive Pockets. You could check out if you want to learn more about that type of real estate investing. Well, John, thank you so much for joining us, sharing your story with us, and best of luck to you as you transition to a more passive investor.

Jon:
Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. This was fun.

Dave:
Absolutely. Thank you all so much for listening. If you want to apply to be on the show, just like John, go to biggerpockets.com/guest. You can fill out a form there. Tell us a little bit about your story, and you may just be selected to join me here on the podcast to talk about your real estate investing journey. Thanks again for listening. For BiggerPockets, I’m Dave Meyer. We’ll see you next time.

 

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