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Want lower mortgage rates? One economic “X factor” could give them to us. It’s time for our 2026 mortgage rate predictions!

Is this the year we get back into the 5% mortgage rate range? It might be more likely than you think. But two things are currently holding mortgage rates in limbo, keeping the housing market “stuck” as buyers beg for a more affordable interest rate. These crucial factors could finally budge, and if/when they do, big changes to mortgage rates could follow.

For four years, Dave has been sharing his mortgage rate forecast leading up to the new year—and he’s been right almost every time. But we’re not just sharing Dave’s take. We’ll also give you mortgage rate forecasts from top economists at Fannie Mae, NAR, and more.

Waiting for lower mortgage rates? Stick around to see if Dave’s prediction is what you want to hear.

Dave:
Which way will mortgage rates go in 2026? This is the question that will determine the direction of the housing market and how to invest in real estate for the next year. Today I’m giving you my 2026 mortgage rate predictions. Then I’m going to share some other expert opinions on mortgage rates that I’m personally following, and then I will reveal the one big X factor that could totally change the mortgage market in 2026. Hey everyone, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m Dave Meyer and I’m excited to have you here for the kickoff to what we call prediction season. Every year around this time, major forecasters, banks, random people on the internet start to make predictions about 2026, and the housing market is certainly no exception. Some of the opinions that you might hear are solid, others not so much. So we here at BiggerPockets want to make sure that you’re getting the best quality forecasts and information as you start planning your strategy and approach to 2026.
So I am going to share with you my own personal predictions and although past performance does not indicate future results have been pretty accurate at this the last couple of years, but on top of just my own opinion, I’ve gathered some reputable forecasts from across the industry to share with you as well. So that’s what we’re doing today, mortgage rates, and then next week I’m going to share my predictions for price, appreciation, rent growth and all that. That’s the plan. Let’s do it. First up, why are we even talking about mortgage rates? Why are we dedicating an entire episode of the show to forecasting mortgage rates? I know everyone is probably tired of talking about it, but the reason I am doing this and spending time on this is that I think it’s the single biggest variable and what happens to the housing market next year.
Yeah, there are tons of other important things we got to take into account, the labor market and tariffs and inflation and immigration and what institutional investors are doing. All of that, the list is long, but my theory about the housing market, which I’ve been talking about for God three years now and has so far proven to be right, is that affordability is the key to everything and mortgage rates are the most important variable in affordability. The housing market is slow right now. We’re going to have only about 4 million transactions in 2025, which might sound like a lot, but it’s actually 30% below the average, and this is happening because we’ve hit a wall, we’ve hit an affordability wall, and although affordability can improve in other ways than mortgage rates, we can see wages go up and prices go down, those are less likely to make a big impact in 2026.
So the most important variable here, and frankly the most volatile variable is mortgage rate. So this is why we’re talking about it Now, fortunately, I know not everyone feels this way, but we should call out for a moment that 2025 was a good year for mortgage rates. Remember back in January, mortgage rates were around 7.2% and they’ve been falling Now as of this recording in November of 2025, they’ve been in the 6.2 to 6.4 range the last couple of weeks leading up to this recording, which is pretty dead on for my prediction for 2025 rates. I think I actually nailed it this year and one year ago said this is about where we would be. That might not seem like some amazing foresight now, but I want you to remember that most forecasts, most influencers one year ago were saying this was the year that rates would finally come down and we would see them in the fives and we were going to see some huge uptick in housing market activity because the Fed was going to cut rates.
But personally, I just didn’t buy it, just like I didn’t buy that idea in 2023 or in 2024, as I’ve consistently said, that rates wouldn’t come down that much despite that being an unpopular opinion. And I’ve said this because I am not focused on the Fed, I am focused on two other things when I look at mortgage rates. Number one is the yield on 10 year US treasuries, and number two is something called the mortgage spread. And I want to talk for just a minute or two about these things work. I promise I will keep the econ talk brief, but this is important. This will help you understand not just predictions that I’m going to make and whether or not you believe me, but this big X factor that I’m going to share that could really change everything. So let’s learn how mortgage rates work.
Mortgages are a long-term loan lending to someone for potentially 30 years, a 30 year fixed rate. Mortgage is a long time, and banks and big institutional investors who buy mortgage-backed securities and are basically the people providing money for mortgages, they want to make sure that they’re getting paid an appropriate amount for that long-term commitment and to help set that price and help them figure out what they should be charging. These investors basically look for benchmarks in other parts of the economy. Who else could they lend their money to? What rate could they get instead of a mortgage holder? Now, the biggest borrower, the biggest person that they could lend their money to is of course, I’m sure you could guess this, the federal government of the United States, the US borrows a ton of money in the form of US treasury bills also called bonds, and since the US has never defaulted on its debt, it has always paid the interest on those treasury bills.
Lending to the US government is generally seen as the safest investment in the world. So when investors are deciding who to lend to and they’re looking for those benchmarks, they look first to the US government and see if that’s a good option for them. And this is why mortgage rates are tied to the 10 year US Treasury because despite most mortgages being amortized over 30 years, the average duration of an actual mortgage before someone sells their home or refinances is about 10 years. And so the 10 year yield is the closest benchmark for a mortgage. These investors could choose to lend to a mortgage holder for 10 years or they could take out a 10 year US treasury. That’s why these things are so closely correlated, but there is more to it. It is not just the yield. As I said, there is a second thing that we need to consider, which is called the spread because banks are not going to lend to you.
I’m sorry to say, they’re not going to lend to you at the same rate they’re going to lend to the US government. That’s just not going to happen full no way. The average US homeowner is just riskier than the United States government. The chance of the average American homeowner defaulting on their mortgage is certainly higher than the US government defaulting on its debt. And so investors build in what is called a risk premium, also known as a spread between the 10 year treasury and the mortgage rates. This is basically the additional money that these investors want to get paid for the additional risk they’re taking on by lending to a homeowner instead of the US government. You see this across the economy too. It’s not just the difference between yields and mortgage rates. You see that auto loan rates are typically higher than mortgage rates because the chances of default on an auto loan are higher.
And so the people who provide the money for those loans want a higher interest rate to compensate for that risk. The average spread between yields and mortgage rates over the last several decades is about 2%. So we’re going to use that as an example here. So if you have the 10 year US treasury, that’s about 4%. The spread is 2%, that is a 6% mortgage rate, and that’s how mortgage rates pretty much work. So I know there’s a lot to that, but it’s important. And again, my purpose here is not just to say a number, tell you to trust me. I want you to really understand and learn how these things move as it really does matter. And as a real estate investor, you’re putting a lot of your own time and effort and money into an asset class that is very mortgage rate sensitive.
So I think it’s worth spending a little bit of time right now to learn how mortgage rates actually work because it really does impact your portfolio. And now that we’ve learned this, you could probably see why rates have come down this year. Spreads are down a little bit, just not too much. They actually came down a lot last year, but they started the year around 2.3 ish percent. Now they’re around 2.2%, so that’s a little bit of improvement. The big improvement that we’ve seen in mortgage rates has come from bond yields falling. They dropped from about 4.5% to about 4.1% as of today. And so you take 4.1% as of today, a 2.2% spread. You get a 6.3% mortgage, which is precisely what mortgage rates are today. Now, you might be wondering what the Fed, right? Everyone makes so much noise about the fed and rate cuts.
Does what they do actually matter? Yes, it does matter, but it matters in a less direct way than yields and spreads. They basically only matter in terms of how much they influence the above variables, right? Because federal funds rate cuts, what the Fed cuts that can bring down bond yields, that can bring down spreads, but they’re just less direct relationships. The federal fund rate is just one of many complicated factors like inflation, the labor market supply and demand in the mortgage backed securities market, prepayment risk, all this other stuff like all those things go into what bond yields are and what the spread is going to be. And the federal fund rates matters, but it matters in the ways that it’s influencing these other things down the line. So now you understand how mortgage rates work. I know it sounds complicated, but that’s it. Just look at bond yields, look at spreads.
Now that we know this, we can actually start making forecasts because we can break this down. Where are bond yields going next year? Where is the spread going next year? And that can tell us where mortgage rates are going. We’re going to get into that right after this quick break. We’ll be right back. Running your real estate business doesn’t have to feel like juggling five different tools. With simply, you can pull motivated seller lists. You can skip trace them instantly for free and reach out with calls or texts all from one streamlined platform. And the real magic AI agents that answer inbound calls, they follow up with prospects and even grade your conversations so you know where you stand. That means less time on busy work and more time closing deals. Start your free trial and lock in 50% off your first month at ssim.com/biggerpockets. That’s R-E-S-I-M p.com/biggerpockets.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. We’re doing our 2026 mortgage rate forecast. Before the break, we talked about how the two variables you need to track to make a forecast about mortgage rates are yields on the 10 year US Treasury and the spread between those yields and mortgage rates. So we got the variables, but now we need to go one level deeper, right? We need to understand what moves bond yields, and I know this sounds complicated, but I think I can make this make sense in a way that can really help your investing decisions. Bond yields are influenced by tons of different things, but I think we could sort of focus on two major variables, things that all of you understand. Inflation and recession, both of these things are going to move bond yields a lot. When there is a lot of risk of inflation, the bond yields tend to go up, and that’s because bond investors really, really hate inflation.
Just think about it this way, right? If you were a bond investor and you were lending money to the US government for 10 years at a 4% rate, you’re doing that because bonds are a good capital preservation technique. It’s good for making sure you hedge against inflation, you make a little bit of a return. That’s what bonds are for. But imagine now if inflation went to 5% for all 10 of those years and you were only locked in at a 4% interest rate, that means you’re lending the government money for negative 1% real yield because yeah, they’re paying you 4%, but you’re losing 5% to inflation. And so you’re kind of getting screwed in that situation and that’s why bond investors really don’t like inflation. And so anytime there is risk of inflation, they will not buy bonds and they will demand a higher interest rate from the US government to compensate for that.
So that’s a major thing that moves bond yields. The other major thing that moves bond yields is recession risk because when there is a lot of risk in the broader economy, when people are not feeling as good about the stock market or crypto or maybe even real estate, they want to move their money to safer investments and bonds are seen as, like I said, the safest investment in the world. And when a lot of people have demand for bonds, when everyone’s clamoring to get their money into this safe asset, the US government says, sure, we’ll lend you money, but we’re not going to pay you as much. Instead of paying 4%, we’re going to pay you 3.5%, we’re going to pay you 3%, and that is why the risk of a recession can actually move bond yields down. Now in a normal economy, you usually have the risk of one of these things happening but not the other.
Either the economy’s going really well and maybe overheating and that’s when you’re risking inflation or things aren’t going well and there’s risk of recession and bond yields start to go down. But we are in an unusual time economically, and the risk of both of these things is relatively high right now. I am recording this in November, so we actually don’t have government data for the last two months because of the government shutdown, which is frustrating and definitely makes forecasting this next year a little bit harder. But what we know is that as of September, inflation had gone up for the fourth straight month. It was about 3.1%. Not crazy like we’re in 20 21, 20 22, but it had been falling for several years. Now it’s moving in the other direction, so the risk of inflation is still there. At the same time, we have some jobs data, we don’t have government jobs data, but a DPA payroll company said that they thought that the US economy shed 50,000 jobs in October.
We’re waiting to learn more, but clearly the risk of rising in unemployment is there. And the fact that we have these two sort of counteracting risks, they kind of offset each other because bond yields can’t go up that much because although some people are worried about inflation, others are worried about recession, they can’t go down that much because although some people are worried about recession, other people are worried about inflation, and that sort of means we are stuck right now. That’s sort of why mortgage rates haven’t moved that much. I think that’s why it’s unlikely that bond yields and mortgage rates are going to move significantly at least for the next few months. In order for mortgage rates to move a lot, something definitive in the economy has to happen one way or the other. We need to see inflation really start to go up and really spark fear for investors, or we need to see it go back down below the fed’s target or we need to see the labor market break.
We need one thing that’s going to tell these powerful big bond investors where to put their money because right now they’re kind of just hedging and that’s leaving us in limbo. That might last for a while. Now, despite the fact that we’re flying blind with no data for the last couple of months, I do want to sort of make a prediction for what I think will happen, what the most likely course is. If I had to predict right now, I think mortgage rates will move down a little bit in 2026. I know there are tariffs, but all the evidence I see is that the slow labor market, slower consumer confidence, and I think that will come to a head in 2026, will start to see more people take a risk off approach. That should put more dollars into bonds and that will bring down mortgage rates.
But I don’t think inflation’s cool enough entirely. So yields will probably stay higher than they might normally in this kind of labor market conditions and the impact on mortgage rates will be muted, and this is why my base case for mortgage rates in 2026 is for them to stay in a range of 5.6 and 6.6%, and I do expect it to be volatile. We’ve seen mortgage rates move up and down constantly over this year, and I think that’s going to continue because we might get a really bad inflation print followed by bad labor market or a great inflation print, and then the next one’s really bad and mortgage rates are very sensitive. They’re going to move to that. So that’s why I think over the course of the year, the range I’m predicting is 5.6 to 6.6%. If you asked me to pick a average for the whole year next year, I’d just say it’s close to 6%, 5.8 to 6.2%, somewhere in there is probably going to be the average.
So that’s my prediction. And I want to say this is not some crazy prediction. I felt a little bit last year, like I was out there on my own saying that rates were going to stay high. That was not the consensus at all. But this year I think I am more in line with the consensus. If you look at Fannie Mae, they are predicting that rates will come down to about 5.9% in 2026. The Mortgage Bankers Association, they’re going the other direction. They actually think it’s going back up to 6.4% and NAR, national Association realtor called it near 6%. So all that’s in my range basically. Most forecasters agree things aren’t going to change that much. Now I’m making my forecaster, but as an analyst, when you learn how to do this stuff, you’re also taught to give sort of a confidence, a level of confidence that you feel about your prediction.
And this year I don’t feel super confident. I would say I am mildly confident. One, because I just don’t have data, right? So much is changing right now and to go the last two months without any new information is pretty big. It really makes forecasting hard. But the second reason I’m feeling less confident is because there’s this big X factor that could totally change my forecast. It could totally change the mortgage market. It could totally change the entire housing market in 2026 if it comes true. And I’m going to share with you this X factor right after this quick break. I’ll be right back. The Cashflow Roadshow is back. BiggerPockets is coming to Texas, January 13th to 17th, 2026. Me, Henry Washington and Garrett Brown will be hosting Real estate investor meetups in Houston and Austin and Dallas along with a couple other special guests. And we’re also going to have a live small group workshop to answer your exact investing questions and help you plan your 2026 roadmap. Me, Henry and Garrett are going to be there giving you input directly on your strategy for 2026. It’s going to be great. Get all the details and reserve your tickets now at biggerpockets.com/texas. Hope to see you there.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here giving my mortgage rate predictions, and I told you my base case, the thing that I think is most probable to happen is that mortgage rates stay in a range between 5.6 and 6.6% next year, somewhere around 6% might be the average for next year, but there is one major variable that I haven’t talked about yet that could change my entire forecast, and I’m not sure if it will happen, but I think the probability that it happens is increasing, and this is huge for real estate investors. If it happens, the big X factor is the prospect of something called quantitative easing. Yes, that is right. The Fed could feasibly bring back. Its one tool that could really bring down mortgage rates in 2026 because remember, federal funds rate doesn’t bring down mortgage rates directly. It does it in an indirect way, but the Fed does have this other tool in its tool belt and it’s called quantitative easing.
Now, I know quantitative easing, it’s a fancy term. It sounds complicated, and it can be, but here’s the idea behind it. During times of financial stress, the Fed can add liquidity to financial markets, which can help stop or reverse recessions. It can stimulate the economy, and they do this through what they call quantitative easing. What normal people would call this is money printing, right? This is just a fancy term for creating money and injecting it into the financial system. Now, it’s not actually going to the US mint or the printing press and actually creating dollar bills, which is why it’s complicated. What they actually do is they go out and they buy us treasuries, those bonds that we were talking about before, or they even buy mortgage backed securities. So they basically act like the investors that I was talking about who invest in bonds or who invest in mortgage backed securities.
Instead of it just being pension funds or hedge funds or sovereign wealth funds, it is also actually the Federal Reserve of the United States acting like one of those investors buying US treasuries and buying mortgage backed securities. And what money do they use to buy this new money? They literally just create it out of thin air. They just press a couple buttons on a computer, and then whoever they’re buying, the mortgage backed securities or treasury funds seize that money in their bank account. And that money never existed before, and this was happening after the great financial crisis and COVID and different people have different opinions about whether it makes sense, whether it was effective, but in recent years, it stopped. Now, should this stuff happen, I’ll get to that in a minute, but what you need to know right now is that unlike the federal funds rate, if they started quantitative easing, again, it would impact mortgage rates.
If the Fed goes out and buys mortgage-backed securities, that raises demand for mortgage-backed securities demand and yields work in opposite directions. So when there is more demand, yields fall and mortgage rates are likely to fall by how much we don’t know. But if they do it aggressively, we could definitely see rates lower than my range. Who knows? We could even see rates into the 4% if they were to do this, and that would be a huge shift. Now, right now, I am just speculating and personally, I believe that quantitative easing should only be used in true emergencies because even though it can bring down mortgage rates, it comes with serious risk of inflation like we saw in 21 and 22 and asset bubbles, and I don’t really think we’re in a financial emergency as of right now in the United States. That might change in 2026, and maybe we will need it, but as of right now, I don’t think quantitative easing is necessary, but the labor market is weakening, and we could see unemployment go up maybe to emergency levels.
If all these predictions about what AI is going to do to the labor market come true, that could cause quantitative easing. The other thing is that President Trump has repeatedly said that he wants lower mortgage rates. He’s even floated the 50 year mortgage in order to bring down housing costs, and he has repeatedly made this a priority, and so he could put pressure on the Fed to start up quantitative easing and buy mortgage backed securities. Now, this is getting into the whole drama that goes on in Washington, but I don’t personally think Jerome Powell, the current fed chair, is going to start quantitative easing. He got burned on that pretty hard before with the crazy inflation in 21 and 22. But in May, 2026, Trump can and probably will replace Jerome Powell, and the new Fed chair might have a different opinion on how to approach this and might start quantitative easing.
There have been a lot of forecasts about this. I was looking into this and some major banks are predicting quantitative easing. I saw some poly market things and about Wall Street thinks there’s about a 50 50 chance that this happens, which is pretty crazy given that we’re not in a recession right now. So this is a really big thing to watch because I’m making my base case for mortgage rate predictions, assuming this is not going to happen. But as the labor market weakens, president Trump continues to prioritize housing affordability. The fact that the Fed just came out and said they’re stopping quantitative tightening, I think the chance that we see this quantitative easing goes up. So that is this really big X factor in my opinion, and something that I’m going to obsessively watch for the next year to see if it’s going to happen, because this, even though I know it sounds esoteric and nuanced, it would have a bigger impact on the housing market than any other thing in 2026. It could fundamentally change the direction of the market in meaningful ways, which we’re going to talk about next week when I give you my predictions for the housing market. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of BiggerPockets Podcast. That’s my predictions, but I’d love to know yours. So let me know in the comments your predictions for mortgage rates in 2026. Thanks again for being here. We’ll see you next time.

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Before you buy a rental property, you’ll need to decide where to invest. Some rookies feel more comfortable investing in their own backyards, while others prefer to handpick a market that will give them enough cash flow or appreciation to reach their long-term goals. But which one will give YOU an advantage?

Welcome to another Rookie Reply! Today, Ashley and Tony are tackling more questions from the BiggerPockets Forums. First, they weigh the pros and cons of investing out of state before debating whether you should get a home equity line of credit (HELOC) on your primary residence to help fund an investment property.

Planning to do a BRRRR (buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat)? Then you’ll need to have your financing lined up ahead of time. Should you use a single loan to cover the purchase and rehab, or is it better to fund them separately? We’ll break down all your options. Do you need a property manager? Stick around for some crucial tips and interview questions that will help you make the right choice!

Ashley:
Should you buy out of state for your very first deal? What if it’s your only way to get started, but the risk keeps you up at night?

Tony:
Today we’re tackling three new listener questions that cover exactly what new investors face, when to go remote, how to do your first bur, and how to manage from hundreds of miles a day.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast, and I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. With that, let’s get into today’s first question. So this question comes from David, me and my wife are new to this and are saving for our first property. Our goal is to start looking for properties within the next couple of months. We have a couple of questions. Would it be wise to invest out of state for our first investment where we can find places slash websites to analyze areas that will provide positive cashflow for us? And they said they do plan to go visit it in person. Would it be wise to use a HELOC on our current residence to use as a down payment for a new property? So a couple of questions here. Basically they’re saying A, doesn’t make sense to invest out of state. B doesn’t make sense to use a HELOC on their primary to fund the purchase of this investment property. And also, I guess some questions on where to get the data. So Ash, I guess I’ll kick to you first few questions here. Investing long distance versus investing in your backyard, what’s your take?

Ashley:
I think it is an advantage to invest in your backyard because you have a better knowledge of the streets. You are physically there to see what’s happening in the market and you probably have more contacts, vendors, real estate agents that you can lean on compared to going and finding a whole new market to invest in. But also really varies on price point. Can you afford something in your market? What can you get a return on for things in your market versus out of state? So I think if there is opportunity to make money in your market that I would start there. I’ve only invested in my market, I’ve gone out of state two times and that was it, but it’s definitely achievable to go ahead and invest out of state. I think for the HELOC part of that question as to should I use my HELOC to fund the deal?
First of all, find out what the interest rate is going to be on a heloc. So your home equity line of credit, this is your primary residence where if you have a mortgage on it or no mortgage, you can tap into the remaining equity into the property and some lenders will give you up to 80%, I’ve seen up to 95% and you’ll get a line of credit that you can go ahead and use. So the line of credit works as when making you want to use some of the money on it, you’re drawing money off that line of credit and the amount you draw off, that’s what you’re going to currently pay interest on. So as you pay the money back, you’re not paying interest on it. The line can sit there, still be available for you to use. That’s what I like about heloc.
The pros and cons of a HELOC is that you can use that money whenever you want, you can go and pull it off. You don’t need to get the bank’s permission to purchase a property with it. And the cons are that there’s no set repayment plan and you are just paying interest on it until it is paid back. And I think that as long as you’re diligent that you’re actually going to make payments. So more than just the interest payment because that’s what you’ll get the bill for. In most cases I have seen it where the line of credit will actually convert to some kind of amortization. So if you haven’t paid the line of credit off into years or something, whatever the balance due is, it will convert it into a 15 year fixed loan where you’re now making monthly payments of principal and interest.
I like a line of credit for full purchases of a property. So if you can get a line of credit big enough to actually purchase a property in cash, that’s a huge advantage to be able to make a cash offer, not have to go through the hoops of getting financing on the property. If you are going to use that line of credit for a down payment and then go ahead and get financing on the property, that’s where I don’t like it because it gets more risky because now you are 100% leveraged on this property. You have the line of credit debt, you have the mortgage on the property, and I like to see some kind of equity in the property. Maybe if you’re getting a slam dunk deal and you’re buying the property way under market value and there’s already going to be baked in equity, this can work.
But also you have to figure out some kind of repayment plan for that line of credit. So if you’re going to do a burr or you’re going to rent out the property, turn it into short-term rental, however that property is making money, you’re going to make sure that the actual rental income will cover repaying back the line of credit or repaying back the and repaying back, I’m sorry, the mortgage that’s on the property too. If you’re going to do a flip, the line of credit works great to purchase it in cash and then go ahead and refinance or I’m sorry, not refinance, but go ahead. When you sell the property to repay back the line of credit,

Tony:
Couldn’t agree more Ash. I think the lines of credit, whether it’s a heloc, a commercial line of credit, whatever it may be, short-term projects make more sense for that for all the reasons that you mentioned. But I think going back to the original part of the question of invest locally or in your backyard, again, agree with everything you share, but I think they’ve got to answer the question David does of what is his actual motivation for investing in real estate? And we harp on this a lot on the show, but only because it’s such an important question to ask because it dictates what strategy makes the most sense for you. David, are you looking for cashflow or do you want to maximize cashflow? Are you looking for long-term appreciation so that in 30 years when this thing is paid off, you’ve also appreciated massively? Are you looking for tax benefits?
What is your actual motivation for doing this and what’s most important? What’s second most important? What’s third most important because it’s very rare, but you’ll find a market that equally satisfies great cashflow, great appreciation, amazing tax benefits, class A neighbor. It’s hard to get all of those things in one market. So if you’ve identified what’s most important to you or once you do that, then you can just take that, compare it to your backyard and say, is it actually achieving what I want to achieve? If you’re most concerned with maximizing your cashflow and you just want to buy a single family, long-term rentals is your strategy, but you live in some super high cost of living market, California, New York, wherever it may be, then maybe your backyard doesn’t make a ton of sense, right? Because it might be hard to cashflow on a traditional single family home in a super high cost of living area.
But if your goal is appreciation and you’ve got the means and resources to actually buy in that market, then by all means go in your backyard. If your goal is appreciation and you live in small town USA, then maybe it’s a little bit harder to make that argument make sense as well. So it comes down to your motivations, why are you doing this? And it comes down to your resources. And I think the combination of those two things, why am I doing this? How much cash do I have? What kind of loan can I get approved for? Those three things together I think will help dictate what cities you should be investing in.

Ashley:
And also thinking about too that your first deal doesn’t have to be a home run deal, that you don’t have to spend all this time in analysis paralysis saying, okay, well this market, I can get this cashflow, this cash on cash return. Oh wait, this market, I can get a little bit more this market, I can get a little bit more. And trying to weigh out how you are going to maximize your money. We get questions all the time. I have $50,000, I have a hundred thousand dollars. What is the best thing that I can do with that money? What is going to give me the best return? There are probably a million different options, strategies that you could do with that money you could take by 10 properties by putting $10,000 down on each property. There’s so much different ways that you can implement that money.
And I think the biggest thing is just finding something where the deal works. And just like Tony said, what is your why? What do you want out of real estate? If a deal works for that get started, don’t try to overanalyze and find that perfect deal that you’re going to get the best deal that anyone has ever gotten with a hundred thousand dollars. And you got to shift your mindset to know that it’s okay if you don’t get the biggest return on your first deal. I didn’t. I gave away equity. I paid interest to my partner. I gave them part of the cashflow. I gave up so much just to get that first deal done, but it propelled me into my investing journey. Okay, we have to take a quick ad break, but when we come back, we want to talk about once you’ve chosen your market and your funding plan, how do you actually stack your financing and make sure the B math works?
We’ll break it down for you right after a quick word from our show sponsors. Okay, welcome back. Our next question comes from Aaron in the BP forums. There are so many loan options out there that I need help focusing my education to the most important ones. And that raises the first question I’m having a hard time understanding. For the experienced burr investors, are there typically three loans in play or just two? One is the loan to purchase the property, two, is the loan to rehab the property, three, the refinance loan? Or are the experienced investors typically seeking to combine steps one and two into a single loan, a fix and flip or some alternative? So one, a loan to purchase and rehab the property. And then the second one, just to refinance. This is actually a great question because there are so many different ways that you could actually do this.

Tony:
It could be split a million different ways, and I think we’ve both done and seen it done a lot of different ways.

Ashley:
I think I’ll start with what I typically do. And when I’m doing a burr on a property, I typically find a way to purchase the property where I’m not getting funding on the deal through a bank loan. I am finding a private money lender, I’m using a line of credit or I’m using cash that I’ve saved up to actually purchase the property. Don’t forget, I’m in a very, very low cost market. So this isn’t a million dollars I am spending here on a property, but I’ll do that. And then I will also do the same for the rehab where I’m using one of those three things. And then I will go and refinance, get an actual loan on the property, and I will pay back my line of credit or my private money lender or pay myself back. And that’s how I typically have done it.
But you could go out and do any of the ways that Aaron mentioned. So you could go out and get a property, you could put 20% down, you could go ahead and fix it up using, I’ve seen people use credit cards. I’ve seen people use money from their parents. I’ve seen them borrow money from their 401k to pay for the rehab. And then when you’re done with the rehab, you have it rented out going and getting a loan on the property, and then you are paying off that first loan that you had gotten. So doing that refinance where you’re paying back that first loan and then hopefully you have extra money left over to pay back however you did the rehab on the property.

Tony:
Yeah, I mean the paying cash for the purchase and the renovation is like the traditional burr. If you go back and you read David Green’s Burr book for BiggerPockets, that was his approach. He would save up a bunch of cash pay for both the purchase and the acquisition and the only loan that would come into play was the refinance loan at the end. So there is a situation where it’s just one loan. For me in my business, it’s been very similar to what Ashley said. Typically, if we’re doing some sort of renovation, we’re raising private capital to fund both the purchase and the renovation. So there’s technically, I mean it is a loan, right? I mean there is a loan there because we give a promissory note, we do all of the documentation, there’s just no bank involved per se. And then once we refinance on the backend, that’s when we go out to get traditional long-term fixed debt.
So really I think to answer the question, it really comes down to you, your resources and your strategy, right? So you, your resources and your strategy, and if you have enough cash to cover both the purchase and the renovation, you don’t need to go out and get debt upfront, just do it yourself if you have access to capital, because if your network, you don’t need to go to a bank, go to your network, have them fund the purchase and the transaction. If you have neither, right, where you don’t have enough to pay in cash, you don’t have a network, then yeah, going out and getting some sort of hard money, some sort of construction debt would be your best option to do the initial acquisition and rehab and yeah, go out and get permanent fixed debt from somewhere else. So there’s a million different ways that you can slice it. I think it comes down to, again, you, the project, your resources, your network,

Ashley:
And also really determining what the costs are to you for doing each of those options. So if you’re going out and you’re getting a mortgage on the property, you’re going to have closing costs. If you’re in New York, you’re going to have attorney fees, things like that to actually purchase the money with a conventional loan or bank financing. Then if you borrow the money for the rehab, and maybe you are putting all the rehab materials on a credit card, if you can’t get a 0% interest card, then maybe you’re paying that really, really high interest on the credit card that you need to factor that in when you go and refinance what are going to be the closing costs, the fees that are associated with that. And I think you have to look at all the costs that are associated with the type of money that you’re getting and how you’re going to fund the deal to actually figure out what your holding costs are and what actually makes sense if you do have different options to actually fund your deal.
So if I’m funding cash into my property and that’s how I’m using it to hold, my holding costs are a lot less than if I went out and used private money or if I used hard money or even just a bank to purchase the property. But also that means that I don’t have that chunk of money anymore. So there is, I’m putting a huge chunk of money in there myself where I could be taking that money and maybe doing something else with it that had a bigger return or earning interest on that money in a high yield savings account, whatever that may be. And then also, it goes opposite way too. If you get a private money lender or you get a hard money lender and all of a sudden your property isn’t refinancing like you thought and it’s not getting that after repair value, it’s done appraising for what you thought. There’s that risk in not being able to pay back the lender in full because the deal didn’t work out what you thought. So weighing out the cost of using the different types of funding and also the risk of the different types of funding that you’re doing too.

Tony:
And just on the risk piece, I think there is one part of the burr that some investors overlook, but regardless of what cash loan debt you use to purchase and rehab the property, oftentimes when you go to refinance, lenders want a seasoning period. Basically. They want to see you have owned that property for at least some period of time before they’ll allow you to refinance and take capital back out of that deal. Usually what I’ve seen is six months ash. Lemme know if you’ve seen something different. I know there are some banks, maybe local, regional, smaller ones that are a little bit more flexible there, but I believe for most it’s six months. And I dunno if that’s like a Fannie and Freddie thing where they want to see six months or if you’re working with a bank that keeps all their loans on their own books, and maybe they got more flexibility there.
But typically six months is what you see. So for example, let’s say that you buy a property, and I’ll use round numbers here. Let’s say the property’s RV is $1 million and let’s say that you’re all in cost to buy it, to renovate it, you’re holding costs, everything came out to $600,000 and the bank says, Hey, we’ll give you 80% loan to value, right? So they’re going to give you $800,000, 80% of 1 million, 800,000 you only owe, your costs are only 600. You’ve got a spread there of 200 K that you could tap into. If you do that refinance, if it’s been less than six months, oftentimes they’ll only allow you to refinance your total cost into that deal. So you could refinance, but it would be for 600 K, meaning you get no cash out. But if you wait the full six months, then you could access all the way up to the 80% or the $800,000 you pay off your 600 K of your costs, you get to keep that 200 K tax free and now you get some cash back for doing this burr.
So just know and ask those questions as you’re looking into your refinance of, Hey, what is the seasoning period that you’d be looking for? Alright guys, we’re going to take a quick break before our last question, but while we’re gone, be sure to subscribe to the Real Estate Rookie YouTube channel. You can find us at realestate Rookie, and we’ll be back with more right after this. Alright, let’s get into our third and final question. This one comes from Jay. Jay says, I’m curious if anyone has a checklist that they go through when evaluating a new property management company for out-of-state investing. Any questions you specifically asks, any questions you specifically ask, any red flags that you see away from, or any processes that you have in place? So he says, out-of-state investing, but honestly, I think this is either in-state or out-of-state. There’s probably some foundational things you should understand.
I’ll give my experience of finding my first property management company, and this was back in 2018, maybe even 2017 when I started looking for them. But they took over in 2018, nonetheless, my property management company by doing a few things. One, I asked my agent in that market for a couple of referrals. I just searched property management company, Shreveport, Louisiana. And then I think I had a list of three or five or so that I found, and then I just called them. And surprisingly out of the five that I called or tried to contact, I think I only heard back from two or three of them. So there’s a couple that didn’t even respond to me. And then of the ones that responded, I met them for coffee. I went out to Louisiana and I had coffee with them and tried to ask them to get a sense of who they are and what’s going on.
And I think through that I was able to understand, okay, who’s super responsive? What are their teams look like? Is this a one man or one woman show or is there an actual team behind them? What is their knowledge of the markets? I just ask ’em like, Hey, how long are your units sitting? Typically? What are you doing to actually market these properties? What does your process look like for turnover? Just trying to understand for me at the time is a rookie, what are all the things that they’re going to be handling for me that I should be aware of? I would encourage you to review their contract because every PM is going to have maybe a slightly different contract they’re stepping into and knowing what their fees and what their costs are, what are all the different ways they make money is important as well.
A lot of Ricks mistakenly assume that the only way that PMs make money is from their management fee every single month. And while that’s maybe the main way, they also make money from doing things like leasing your unit and they’ll charge you a bigger fee anytime there’s a turnover and they have to place a new tenant. If they’re taking care of your maintenance for you, maybe there’s cost associated with that. So if you get into short-term rental space, there’s even a lot more ways. There’s tech fees and pricing fees and different things they can add on. So just get a full understanding of their fee structure. That’s how I started. Ash, I’m curious for you, right, because you’ve done it yourself, you’ve used PMs, what checklists or how are you evaluating PM companies?

Ashley:
Yeah, actually I BiggerPockets. We have a article that was written that is literally 78 questions to ask a property manager, and I’m going to link it into the show notes for you guys.

Tony:
Not 70, not 80, but 78. Okay, there you go. Very specific.

Ashley:
So you can go ahead and go through this whole list and pick and choose what you want to ask, or you could probably send over the whole list of questions to a property manager. And the one that actually answers it may be the best one just by having them go through all the questions. But for me, I had a property management company for three years, and some of the mistakes I made when hiring them was I picked the company because of its marketing. They were so great at marketing that I was just like, wow, this must be the best company wrong mindset to have. Just like if you’re following someone on social media, oh, they must be successful. They have a lot of followers. That was literally my mindset on picking the property management company. And I only interviewed them. And so we did the interview process and the mistake I made was asking yes or no questions.
So do you manage apartment complexes? And it should have been how many units in an apartment complex do you manage? I think that I was working with a partner and we were both giving him our properties and he had a 40 unit apartment, and that was going to be way bigger than any other unit they’ve ever managed. And managing a 40 unit is completely different than managing a five unit. So that was a big mistake there. So not getting more specific. Another way to ask a question. Whenever you’re vetting anyone, like lenders, agents asking, how many investor deals have you done in the past month? So for a property management company, it could be how many turnovers or vacancies are you filling on average each month or something like that where they have to give you a specific number or how many apartment complexes that you have that each have how many units?
So tailoring questions more towards that. And then Tony had said the fees, that was a big thing that I did not understand as to how many additional fees for every little thing. And then just the maintenance cost and turnover cost process. So for example, partly through our management, they decided to implement inspections throughout the property. So twice a year they would go in to each property and do, it was supposed to be proactive. And at first this sounds like a great idea, but then the cost just started to add up so much. They were charging a fee to go and do it. I can’t remember. It was somewhere between $45 and $75 a unit to go in and to walk through it. Then they would make a list of things they think that needed to be done, maybe the furnace filter changed or batteries put into smoke detector, other things like that.
So then they’d make their list and then they would go ahead and schedule again to go ahead and fix these things and put them on all about being a proactive landlord. Here’s where I saw the problem is together we had about 130 units, me and this other investor, and we were under the same PM contract and they quoted us out for getting new smoke detectors for half of the units or something like that, just updating them, whatever. And all of them were at cost. And right there was like, okay, can we get the bulk order from? I’m looking at Lowe’s right now. If I get 10, I can get ’em for $2 cheaper for each of them, just me on the Lowe’s website ordering 10. So I think having an really good understanding of understanding what the costs are associated with maintenance and how they’re figured out. Are they getting discounts on materials? Are they doing those inspections? And what are the costs associated with that? What changes can they make to their actual process? So this was told this is happening, you are getting these inspections. What other things could you implement throughout the year that maybe we don’t have in our property management agreement that could come up? So I think I was really focused on, oh, I can’t wait to get this off my shoulders and have somebody else take care of all of this that I didn’t understand and ask enough questions.

Tony:
And I think the last thing you said, Ashley, is the lesson for all of the Ricky that are listening. Even if you hire a property manager, even if they’re handling all the day-to-day, you still have an obligation and a need to manage the property manager because no one’s going to look after your asset the same way that you do. Even in the world’s best pm you’re not their only client. They have hundreds, maybe thousands of other properties that they’re managing. So you’ve got to be your own best advocate. And part of that is managing the pm, asking all of those questions, holding them accountable, and then not being afraid to make the change if it’s in the best interest of your business.

Ashley:
And I think too is to, there’s just things that they don’t do that you want to do for your property too. They’re most likely not quoting out your insurance every year. They’re most likely not checking your water bill. The PM company I use, they just had a payables department where everybody’s bills got sent there for all of the properties they manage is just somebody scanning them in, setting them to pay, not actually looking and be like, wow, this person’s water bill is three times higher. Their toilet might be running and they haven’t told us, but the owner is paying it. So I think that was a big thing too, is you really do need to go through detail by detail your owner statement and seeing what you’re being billed for and seeing what your payables actually look like and just having that oversight on your property. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us today. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and we’ll see you guys on the next episode of Real Estate Ricky. I.

 

 

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The housing market has been flat or falling for almost three years, and last month we called it what it is: a correction. Not a crash…but a real correction. So what does that actually mean for investors right now?

Today, the On the Market crew is taking over to talk through how to approach a correction, what smart investors are doing in this environment, and what WE’RE buying as opportunities start to surface. The market feels “slow,” but compared to the years of easy money, almost anything would. This is the part of the cycle where predictability returns, distress starts to show, and disciplined investors set themselves up to win after the Great Stall.

Kathy Fettke shares how her strategy has evolved after 25 years of buying through multiple cycles, why she’s leaning into lower-stress investing, and what still hasn’t changed about finding solid long-term deals. Henry breaks down what a “balanced” market actually looks like, why multiple exit strategies matter more than ever, and the tactics he’s setting up to ensure he always walks away profitable. And Dave explains the deal analysis mindset you need during a correction—and the key market signals worth watching right now.

If you’re waiting for perfect timing to invest, this episode might change your mind. This is what we’re looking to buy right now at the end of 2025. 

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • What a real correction looks like (sorry, it’s not a crash!)
  • The multiple exit strategies that will save you from a bad deal in 2025 and 2026
  • How investor psychology shifts during slower, more “normal” markets (don’t be scared!)
  • How we’re actively adjusting our investing strategies—and what we’re buying now
  • The key metrics worth tracking during a housing market correction
  • And So Much More!

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This article is presented by TurboTenant.

Maintenance might be one of the biggest challenges landlords face. Whether it’s a true emergency or a Sunday afternoon text about a light bulb, keeping up with rental maintenance requests can quickly eat into your time and sanity. If you’ve ever had your phone buzz at 2 a.m., you know what I mean.

Rental maintenance requests are a necessary part of owning property, but they don’t have to run your life.

What Doesn’t Work

Every landlord has a story about that middle-of-the-night message. You know the type: There’s a leaking faucet, tripped breaker, or tenant panicking about something minor.

When I first started managing my own rentals, I actually carried two phones—one for personal use, and one strictly for tenants. If a tenant called the “rental phone,” I’d jot their issue down on a pink paper form I kept in a stack on my desk. Then I’d hand that form to my maintenance person, who’d coordinate with the tenant, fix the problem, and return the form to me once the job was complete.

This system worked fine when I was tied to a desk in an office, but once I started scaling, it fell apart fast. Calls would come in at all hours, I’d lose track of forms, and sometimes tenants and maintenance were waiting on me just to relay a simple message. And let’s not forget about keeping up with communication on scheduling and status updates. 

When I started to move out of my business, I needed to think about how to replace my process to be more efficient and to remove myself from the process.

Don’t Let Maintenance Take Over Your Life

The thing about maintenance is, it’s not just the repair that takes time. The back-and-forth between your vendors and tenants can really eat into your inbox (and your day). You want to respond quickly to keep great tenants and protect your property, but manual systems make that nearly impossible. You have to update your system for a more streamlined maintenance process. 

A big part of streamlining maintenance starts with clarity. Make sure your rental lease agreement clearly outlines who’s responsible for what, whether that’s changing light bulbs, testing smoke detectors, or managing lawn care. Clear expectations help prevent confusion and unnecessary back-and-forth later.

Even with a solid lease, maintenance requests can become a game of tag, because:

  • Tenants don’t always provide enough information about their request.
  • Landlords and vendors need follow-up photos or videos.
  • Responses lag.
  • Schedules don’t align to complete the request.

How to Pass Maintenance Off to AI

This is where automation and AI step in to help.

TurboTenant just rolled out a new AI-powered maintenance feature that can troubleshoot issues before you ever need to get involved. According to Yahoo! Finance, this feature is designed to make the maintenance process smarter and less stressful for both landlords and tenants.

When a tenant submits a maintenance request, the AI tool jumps in to gather more details. It asks specific follow-up questions like:

  • What room is the issue in?
  • What exactly isn’t working?
  • Can you describe or upload a photo of the problem?

If it’s a simple fix, the AI feature can offer troubleshooting suggestions in the chat. For instance, if the tenant says a light won’t turn on, it might prompt them to check the breaker or bulb before escalating the request. Sometimes that quick guidance is all it takes to resolve the issue without the landlord (you) ever needing to step in. 

I can’t even begin to tell you the number of times a tenant has tripped their breaker from having too many appliances plugged into their kitchen outlets. It would cost me at least $50 just to send someone out to realize the breaker just needed to be flipped. That $50 doesn’t include my time to schedule and coordinate with the tenant and handyman. This new AI feature will already save me a lot of time and money with just this one instance. 

If the problem does need a professional’s attention, you’ll get a neatly packaged report with a clear description and photos. This means that you can hand the request off to the right contractor right away, with accurate information for a quote and time estimate.

Additionally, the AI maintenance feature can use the lease agreement in order to better communicate with your tenant. If a tenant reports a faulty smoke detector and your lease states that replacing the battery and detector is the tenant’s responsibility, the tool will let them know politely and automatically. How cool is that? You don’t even need to remember what your lease agreement says for that property, or take the time to read through it again.

The goal of using AI to help with maintenance requests is a frictionless process that saves time, reduces miscommunication, and keeps tenants happy.

Better Systems Lead to Fewer Headaches

When you implement technology like this into your maintenance process, you save time and improve your entire operating procedure for timely maintenance requests. Here’s why:

  • Tenants stay longer. Quick responses and smooth communication build trust.
  • You reduce vacancies. Happy tenants renew leases.
  • You make smarter decisions. Organized maintenance logs and documentation help you budget for future repairs and spot patterns of repairs before they turn into expensive problems.

Looking back, I can’t believe how much time I spent tracking pink forms and playing phone tag. Now I can get a complete, organized overview of every request in one place, and my tenants get faster resolutions.

Ultimately, automation doesn’t replace good management, but it certainly enhances it. By letting AI handle the tedious parts of maintenance, you can focus on what really matters: growing your portfolio and creating great experiences for your tenants.

Ready to Make Maintenance Easier?

If you’re tired of juggling calls, forms, and follow-ups, it’s time to give AI a try. TurboTenant can help you automate maintenance requests, improve communication, and take one more thing off your plate.

Try it out for yourself and see how much easier managing your rentals can be.



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Don’t buy in good school districts. Always end your leases in winterNEVER raise rents on a tenant.

These are just some of the “Dionisms” that have made Dion McNeeley, the so-called “lazy investor,” rich with rental properties. He achieved financial freedom, retiring early with a $200,000/year passive income after slowly, steadily, and lazily investing for the past decade.

Want to never swing a hammer? You don’t have to! Want tenants to stick around as long as possible? They will! Too scared to have the rent raise talk? Let Dion do it for you! In this episode, we’re breaking down the ten different “Dionisms” (unconventional landlord advice) that have literally made Dion millions and can do the same for you.

Dion went from debt-riddled to multi-millionaire in just over a decade, starting his journey making just $17/hour, with three kids and very little time. If Dion can reach financial freedom with FEWER rentals, why can’t you?

Dave:
Hey BiggerPockets community. It’s Dave just dropping in. To give you a heads up that this week we are putting some of our most popular BiggerPockets podcast episodes back on the feed over this Thanksgiving week. Today we have a conversation I had with Dion McNeely back in February. Dion’s been on the show before and is also one of our amazing keynote speakers at PP Conn this past year, and I just love talking to him because he ignores a lot of the conventional wisdom about real estate investing. He’s a real thought leader, he thinks for himself, and whether this episode is a refresher or you’re hearing his Dion hiss for the first time, you’re almost guaranteed to rethink some of your own investing ideas. After listening to this episode, have a happy Thanksgiving and I’ll see you back here with new episodes of the BiggerPockets podcast next week. Do not buy properties in a good school district. Have your leases end in the winter. Let your tenants pick their own rent. You think you’ve been following real estate best practices? Well today we’ll explain why everything you thought you knew might be wrong.
Hey friends, it’s Dave Meyer. Welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast where we help you achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. Today’s guest is Dion McNeely, an investor in the Tacoma, Seattle area, and you may have heard Dion before on the Rookie Show or BiggerPockets Money podcast before, and he’s pretty famous for developing the quote binder strategy for raising rents. Dion started investing with a huge amount of debt and a low income. He used only the most basic strategies and says he tried to be as lazy about his investing as possible. Today, fast forward, he’s retired with more passive income than he can even spend, so we’re going to get into the details of how he had so much success even when he admittedly put as little work as possible into his portfolio. Here’s me with Dion McNeely Dion, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thanks for being here.

Dion:
Howdy. I appreciate the invitation. I like to share my information on the Real Estate Rookie podcast because I tend to talk to those people who are just starting out, but this is the podcast that actually helped me reach financial freedom, so I’m excited anytime I get to come back here.

Dave:
Absolutely. Well, as you said, you’ve been on the BiggerPockets network quite a few times, but for those who are maybe new listeners or just need a refresher, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dion:
What I’m most known for is this thing called the Binder strategy where I don’t raise my rents. My tenants do, and we can cover that a little bit before we’re done today, but I didn’t start investing until I was 40. I got laid off from law enforcement because of the 2008 housing crash, was a single parent with three kids, found out about $89,000 in bad debt in my name. I didn’t know existed until the divorce started teaching at A CDL school making $17 an hour. So I had a lot of bad debt, not a lot of income, a lot of responsibilities, and decided to try real estate. Started out really bad, made every mistake I could think of. I think I was trying to make the full list of mistakes that you can. I tried to do it without a lease. I tried to rent to a friend.
I did all of those mistakes. Then finally decided to educate myself. Started house hacking in 2013 with a duplex when everyone was screaming, don’t buy because prices are higher than 2008, so it’s going to crash. Got another one in 2015 when everybody was screaming, the silver tsunami was about to hit, so prices were going to crash. Got another In 2018 when everybody said prices are high in interest, rates are high. I was paying 7% interest rates that you can’t possibly do it then. And during the pandemic in 2020, I house sacked my second one at fourplex and bought a triplex when everyone was saying it was going to crash because of everything going on in 2021 when forbearance was ending, I bought another duplex and in 2022 I retired after 12 years of investing and now my kids won’t inherit a parent they have to take care of. Instead, they’ll probably inherit millions as just an accidental byproduct of me trying to figure out how not to have to work.

Dave:
Unbelievable. Well, it’s a very cool story and I want to get into some more of this. Let’s just start at 2008 just briefly and then we’ll move on to what you’re doing today. But you lost your job. It sounds like you were in a tough situation. This wasn’t a good time for real estate, so why did you choose to try it?

Dion:
So kind of an accidental problem. I owned a house and I couldn’t sell the house. I was upside down. I owed more than it was worth. Interest rates had gone up, so I was stuck with the property and I had some examples of people who had reached financial freedom. My brother has 10 paid off rentals and he retired about that time. I have a friend with 30 rentals, but he’d been doing it for decades and they used strategies I just didn’t have access to. Right. I was working full-time, raising the kids wasn’t very handy. My brother would buy a place, do a full rehab and then pay off the HELOC that he used to buy it. I didn’t have equity and deciding to do it was actually around that 2000 8 0 9 when I got laid off from law enforcement. It was a several year process to get my credit score fixed, get enough work history as a CDL instructor so that I’d be bankable. I moved from my house into an apartment and rented the house out so that I can get rental income on two years of tax returns to get around my bad debt to income ratio. And then when I bought that first duplex, moving from the apartment into the duplex, I’ve had a lot of friends and people that I meet, so they couldn’t do it because they have family and I think my family was the motivating factor to do it, not the excuse not to.
And I think until you have that conversation with your family, you don’t know if they’re going to want to or not. My kids were actually excited. My son said, wait, we get to move into an apartment complex where there’s a bunch of teenage girls, and my daughter said, we get to move into a place where I’m the new girl. There was some TV show called New Girls, so thanks Hollywood for that. But they were excited about the moves and they didn’t even realize it was financial decisions making us do this.

Dave:
Oh, they were just pumped about it. That’s great. It’s a win-win for everyone. Fast forward to today, how many units do you have? You had talked about paying ’em off. What’s your average debt on these properties?

Dion:
So when I was in growth mode, I wanted to maintain about 70% loan to value so that I would gain the most levered appreciation, levered depreciation, and I had the security of that drug that comes, that kills your dream, that paycheck that we all work for. And when I lost the security of that, I lowered my goal to 50% loan to value so that I wouldn’t be as levered when I was retiring. And the current portfolio looks like this. I have 18 rental units, it’s on eight properties, so it’s mostly duplexes, a triplex and a fourplex. I’m house hacking a duplex. Something that most people think of house hacking for is they think it’s the way you started in real estate. For me, it was the way I started retirement. Totally. I moved to an area I wanted to live in. I used to travel and there’s still somebody living on the property. I still don’t have a housing expense, but the actual cashflow from the property, just a quick breakdown is gross monthly cashflow from 18 units is 35,000. I have about 9,000 a month in mortgages going out. So that’s principal interest. Taxes and insurance used to be eight, but taxes and insurance went up. I set aside a little over 5,000 a month for repairs. So that’s about 15% that I set aside for future costs,
Leaving me with about $21,000 a month that I’m trying to figure out how to spend in retirement.

Dave:
Wow, that’s unbelievable. That’s a huge income. Can I just ask how that compares to what you were making before you were laid off in 2008?

Dion:
So when my cashflow from rentals passed 2,700 a month, that was more than I was making as a blue stock.

Dave:
So you’re like TEDx that or eight x that or something like that,

Dion:
Right? Yeah. So it’s significantly different and that’s why I said that kind of sarcastically trying to figure out how to spend it, that’s the biggest challenge for me.
The not having money. So living frugally and then the dedication it took for a decade to reach financial freedom and to save every penny to invest for the next property. It’s a really hard switch to flip in our brain on how do I go to spending because I’m no longer saving for retirement. I don’t pay a penny in taxes. I haven’t paid taxes on rental income yet. I look forward to the day that I do. That’ll mean I make so much money I had to give some to the government. But that leverage depreciation is amazing.

Dave:
Wow. Well that’s incredible. It’s very cool and I think that is honestly, hopefully everyone listening to this gets to this point, but when you do reach that level of financial independence, it is tough to realize that you can buy a decent car or that you can afford to go out to eat a couple times more, and it’s a weird psychological shift that you have. It’s not about the money in your bank account, but like you said, you should have to just adopt this frugal mindset and a reinvestment mindset. At least to me, every dollar cashflow, you put it back into a new property. So my question is why not buy more properties?

Dion:
So I didn’t invest to live a frugal life. If I had to be frugal, I probably would just have stayed working. My goal was to retire and live the life that I felt like living, which is traveling and scuba diving and in many places as I want to.

Speaker 3:
Oh, cool.

Dion:
And you guys have had Coach Carson on, he has a book out, small and mighty investor.

Dave:
Love Chad.

Dion:
Yeah, Chad is awesome and I really align with his. My goal was never the most amount of units or the most amount of cashflow or a big portfolio. What I wanted personally was the right amount of cashflow from the least amount of units, and it was a really simple math equation for me. I spend about $4,000 a month doing everything I want to do. So I multiplied that by four as a safety net,
Right? In 2018, I reached that from 2018 to 2022, I lived off of rental income and didn’t touch anything from my job to make sure it was like a litmus test. I don’t need it. So I had a four time multiplier cashflow above 16,000. I don’t want more. One of the ways I grew is you have a choice of recycling cashflow or recycling equity capital. I’ve never done a home equity line of credit. I’ve never done a cash out refinance. I’ve never sold for a 10 31. That’s one of the reasons I have so much cashflow on so few units as I could have grown to a bigger portfolio with thinner margins. If I use the equity and I try to redefine equity for everybody that I meet from, you have equity you can touch. That’s what most people say. I say you have the ability to add debt to an existing asset. So not adding that debt is why I have so much cashflow on so few units.

Dave:
That’s great. I love this philosophy in general, just showing that Dion, you literally eight Xed your income and with just 18 units, right on eight properties, which I say just, but that’s a huge, very successful portfolio. It’s just when you go on social media, you hear people saying that they have dozens or thousands of units. But clearly Deanna is demonstrating to everyone that you don’t need to have this massive ambition just for acquisition. But just by being diligent and being somewhat risk averse and just sort of sticking to the fundamentals and paying down your debt as much as possible, you can greatly increase your income even in today’s day and age with just a relatively achievable number of units. It doesn’t have to sound like this crazy number. I think for most people, even if you’re just starting out, the idea of acquiring eight units over 10 years seems reasonable, and for most people it is actually reasonable.
So super glad you said that. Also wanted to just reiterate something I’ve stolen from Chad. He talks about the growth phase and then he talks about sort of the quote harvester phase, which you get to the end at your end of your career, which it sounds like what you’re at, which is when you start paying down that debt and that just want to underscore forever everyone, there’s kind of different strategies, different tactics that you use depending on where you are when you’re acquiring properties, maybe you do use more leverage, but when you’re at the point, Dion’s at or Chad is at, that’s sort of when maybe you take risk off the table, you don’t grow your equity as much as possible. You focus on cashflow because you want to go scuba diving like Dion does, which is great. Well, thanks for sharing the update with us, Deanne, and congrats on all your success.
Super, super impressive. We do have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to shift gears and talk about some of the quote unquote Dion iss, maybe these counterintuitive ideas that you have for your portfolio. We’ll be right back. Running your real estate business doesn’t have to feel like juggling five different tools. With simply, you can pull motivated seller lists. You can skip trace them instantly for free and reach out with calls or texts all from one streamlined platform. And the real magic AI agents that answer inbound calls, they follow up with prospects and even grade your conversations so you know where you stand. That means less time on busy work and more time closing deals. Start your free trial and lock in 50% off your first month at ssim.com/biggerpockets. That’s R-E-S-I-M-P-L i.com/biggerpockets. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Dion McNeely. We caught up on his portfolio over the last couple of years, but now we’re turning our attention to a bunch of different somewhat counterintuitive ideas or principles that you use in your own investing. Dion, I’m super excited to hear about them.

Dion:
So I think looking at things through fresh eyes is one of the most important things when it comes to investing. You can’t go out and study what somebody else did and copy it. You have to take what somebody else did or look at what hundreds of other people did and then figure out with your resources, your timeline and your goals, what they’re doing that would match your strategy and utilize a little bit from each one. And so some of the things I come up with that work for me seem to, I don’t want to say upset. I get a reaction when I tell other investors.
The first one I go with is I don’t raise my rents. Here’s so many landlords go, I don’t want to raise the rent and lose a good tenant. Well, if you don’t raise the rent, you’re going to lose a good asset. So what I did is I came up with the binder strategy, which is where my tenants asked me to raise the rent. So I’m not raising the rent, but my rent stays consistently growing just below market without having to have high tenant turnover or upset tenants or lose a good tenant. And so that’s been talked about here on BiggerPockets a few times. And so to me, that’s my first counterintuitive one.

Dave:
I have heard of this binder strategy through you, Dion, but for those who aren’t familiar, you got to make sense of this for us because you’re saying that your tenants essentially volunteer to pay more rent. How do you pull that off?

Dion:
So I buy properties from MLS with conventional loans. Right now I don’t do driving for dollars, no wholesaling, no creative anything. I’m a super lazy investor. I was working and raising kids, and so I just had to add a property every couple of years and I didn’t need a big stream of properties. I just needed to find the right one. Every couple of years I preferred to buy ’em with tenants in place and usually the tenants were neglected. Properties weren’t taken care of very well. Rents were far behind. That’s why they were selling. So I go to the tenants, most landlords would want the place vacant. They would want to do a rehab and get market rents. Well, I didn’t have the time or the to do a full rehab and carry the burn rate of a place empty for a few months. I wanted to buy it occupied. That meant plumbing was probably working. Electric was probably working, not a lot of repairs needed done. And so I wouldn’t do this right away. I didn’t get to vet those tenants. I didn’t get to run their credit score or know their work history or eviction history. So I’d want to wait two months to make sure they paid on time. They didn’t call me for super trivial things. I didn’t get noise complaints. But once I decided I wanted to keep the tenant, it’s called the binder strategy because actually use a three ring binder.

Dave:
You actually have a binder. This is what I’ll be doing

Dion:
Soon. The cover is going to be a picture of the property with the current Zillow or Redfin estimate of what the property is worth. So you tell the tenants, okay, here’s the current value of the property. Your rent made sense to the previous owner, but my property taxes and insurance are going to be based on this and the tenant doesn’t care, but I’m showing them this is online, it’s just printed right from the internet. You can Google everything I’m going to talk about so you can verify what I’m going to say. The next page is a printout from Fair Market with what the rents are in the area for however many units the person is in. If they’re in a two bedroom or a three bedroom, this is what the government would pay me if a Section eight tenant moved in. If you’re buying military installation, I’m by joint base Lewis McCord.
You might have the basic allowance for housing printout to see what the military pays for housing. Then there’ll be a map with all of the rentals in the area, and then several pages of rentals available currently in your area with the same number of bedrooms as the one the tenant is. In this example, the tenant is paying about 1400, I think it’s 1460. A current rent area average is 2000 to 2100. So I’ve got, I’m going to print out some of the barriers. They’re about $600 off as a landlord. If I go into the property and I say, I’m raising your rent a hundred dollars, I’m a jerk. I get flamed on social media,
I probably get an upset tenant. They probably start looking for other places. Maybe they move in with a friend or move in something else. But if I go in and I go, you’re paying 1460, section eight will pay me for this area, 1987. I’ve got several examples of 2000 to 2100. And then I asked the magic question, what do you think would be fair? Almost every time so far, the tenant came back with a little more than split the difference. So in this case, it went to 1760, so it was $300 increase. If I increase it a hundred dollars, it’s terrible and I have an unhappy tenant. If the tenant asks for $300 and I agree, they’re happy, but they’re educated, they see what it would be if they moved. I’ve had a lot of times where the tenant suggests an amount and I say, that would be fair for me, but that’s a bit much. How about we instead of 300 go up, two 50, bring it down a little from what they ask. So they actually walk away thinking, well, I’ve saved money over what I suggested as my rent. Happy tenants don’t trash your property and happy tenants don’t leave. It’s actually pretty rare that they’ll move out.

Dave:
That’s right. Yeah. I mean this is such a cool strategy. I love this idea. It really just speaks to the psychology of, you said it’s not really so much of this is not even math, right? Like you said, a hundred bucks people are going to get mad. But giving people agency and also just you treat them like adults, you’re explaining to them your situation. And I think most people who are reasonable are going to look at that and say, yeah, I mean I am getting a good deal. If they pick a rent, they’re still getting a good deal. By your estimation, right? You’re getting what you need, Dion, they’re happy and they’re still getting in their mind still a good deal and you’ve given them some autonomy and sense of control over their own situation, which I would imagine goes a long way to having very happy tenants and high occupancy rates.

Dion:
One of the strategies I really love is from Michael Zuber. He was on the BiggerPockets Money show, one rental at a Time community. He talks about getting to four rentals. If you get to four rentals, you’ll find out if you want more. When I got to four, if I thought if I raise the rent and I have a tenant turnover every time I talk to the tenant about the rent, if I have a tenant turnover, I don’t think I would’ve wanted more. But coming up with the binder strategy and having such low tenant turnover, I was able to grow the portfolio. At no point when I was working did I think, oh, this is too much work. I don’t want another rental. It takes me about two hours a month to manage all 18 units. I can easily add that to my workload when I had a job. But that’s what Zebra said was get to four and then you’ll know when I got to four, I knew I needed a strategy that made it easier and to give me less tenant turnover because if it was a struggle, I don’t even know if I would’ve kept the four.

Dave:
Alright. That is a very, very interesting and it’s not counterintuitive actually, once you explain it to me, it makes a lot of sense, but it’s not obvious. It’s something that I think a lot of people would not see coming. So thanks for sharing that. What is your second deism?

Dion:
I like my leases to end in the winter and most landlords say I want my lease to end in the summer because it’s easier to find a tenant.

Dave:
Interesting because I’ve done the opposite. I have to admit, if I had a lease coming up on a new property in November, I’d let them either sign a six month lease or an 18 month lease to try and get them in the summer. Because I’ve always had this belief that you have more demand in the summer. But are you saying kind of the contrarian view here works

Dion:
More people move in the summer if your goal is to make it easier to find a tenant, sure. Have your least end In the summer, my goal was to have the least amount of tenant turnover. I was working full-time raising three kids. I didn’t want it to be easy to find a tenant. I didn’t even actually want to be good at finding a tenant. What I wanted was low tenant turnover. Now if people move in the summer, that means less people move in the winter, kids are in school. Interesting. It’s harder because it’s cold. So I’ve had very little tenant turnover because most of my leases all but one right now end in December and January. That’s awesome.

Dave:
Do you ever get a situation where people ask to extend to the summer, they want to move out, but it’s November and they’re like, Hey, can I extend this to May?

Dion:
I haven’t yet. So there’s a couple of things I’ll do with my leases because I go to every one of my tenants and I say, you should not be renting. This is the dumbest thing that you do. You should be buying a duplex just like the one you’re renting. You should live in one side, rent out the other. So I try to talk all of ’em into getting on the property ladder. Part of it is they’re probably going to find my YouTube channel someday, and I want them to know I’m transparent. I’m trying to get them on the property ladder. So I tell the tenants, and I’ve had a few go, okay, I want to buy a house, but if I sign a lease, what do I do? And I say, well look, I need the year long lease because it makes me bankable for the next loan. So my lenders want to see that I have year long leases. But if you’re looking to buy a property, how about we make your lease termination fee $50?

Dave:
How love

Dion:
That. So when I introduce you to an agent and I introduce you to my lender and you buy a place, hopefully I’ve always wanted them to buy a duplex or something. But the three that have done it in this decade have always bought houses. So they terminate their lease anytime they want. So I’m helping them get on the property ladder. I have the lease that makes my lender happy and I’m kind of aware there’s a tenant turnover coming because they’re buying a house if they find the one that they do. And then I’ve never had a lender come out and go, I don’t like that your lease termination fee is so low. I don’t even think I’ve ever met one that looked at that part. They just go, what are the dates on the lease? Okay, what’s the amount? Great. That hits our DTI that we

Dave:
Need. Oh, that’s cool. Very cool. I really like that. That’s awesome. Alright, so those are the first two Dion’s, just as to recap it is tenants raise their rents, not Dion, and he prefers to end in the winter leases instead of in the summer. And just as a reminder, these are 10 principles, ideas, philosophies. Dion has evolved over the course of his investing career that are a little bit counterintuitive to what the common narratives about real estate investing are. So far I like these two. Hit us with the third one.

Dion:
I do not want to own a rental property in a good school district ever. Really? Why so? Why is the school district

Dave:
Good high property taxes?

Dion:
Because the property taxes are higher. Yeah, exactly. The funding for the school district. Yeah. My goal is not the biggest portfolio or the most cashflow. It’s the right amount of cashflow from the least amount of units. And then there’s kind of a sub goal of low tenant turnover. Why would I invest in a good school district when I’m aging out? My tenants kid leaves middle school, you don’t like the high school, you move kid graduates high school goes to college, you move. I have tenants in places that were living there 26 years I purchased it. They’re there nine years later because they’re not in a good school district. They didn’t pick it because of the age of their kids or what they were going to get out of that local community based on schools. So I like the low property taxes. I like the low tenant turnover. It’s counterintuitive. I also really like the rent to price ratio that comes from getting out of those Class B and class A neighborhoods. So the class C neighborhoods tend to have the not quite as attractive school districts, which more lines up with my rent to price ratio.

Dave:
Curious de does that mean, are you still renting to families?

Dion:
I have some families that I rent to. Yes. I would never do anything discriminatory.

Dave:
No. Just curious. Who’s attracted to these properties?

Dion:
So this is a couple of forms of legal discrimination that I do. My goal is not to rent to families. All the pet damage that I’ve ever had totaled in over a decade, it’s $200, but the kid damage that I’ve had was tens of thousands. So I prefer not to rent to kids, but I can’t use it as a determining factor of to rent to somebody or not. But if I don’t invest in good school districts, I’m less likely to get families. And anytime I have repair in a bathroom, I won’t go out and ripped out all the bathtubs. But if I have a problem with the bathtub, I will take it out and put in a walk-in shower. Having walk-in showers means also less likely to rent to families. So I do have a few tenants that have kids. That tends to be where my problems and damages happen.
Pipes that get completely 12 foot section of pipe clogged with otter pop trimmings from kids. It doesn’t happen if you don’t have kids. And that actually happened last year. So no, I don’t discriminate illegally, but I do target my tenants. Kind of like one of my forms of diversifying. Another deism is I’m a hundred percent in real estate. I don’t own one stock. I don’t own any crypto. I don’t have any money in a retirement account. And so since I’m all in real estate, I have to diversify. And one of my forms of diversifying in real estate is I want about one third military, one third section eight and one third working or retired. And if you ran an ad that said military only or section eight only, I’d get sued.
But if I run an ad on the base or if I send my listing to the housing authority and say this is the link to the place that becomes available on Tuesday, can you share it with your tenants or your clients? What type of tenant am I most likely to get? So I can control how I advertise, not what I advertise to avoid being sued and I don’t maintain a perfect ratio, but I want about a third of each. So I’m ready for a pandemic, an eviction moratorium, a stock market crash or a prolonged government shutdown where it doesn’t hit my entire portfolio.

Dave:
Interesting. So you like military I assume, because it’s recession resistant. Very stable job. Same thing with retirement. I guess you probably have people who are on fixed income either relying on a pension or social security and with section eight the government just guarantees the income. So you’re basically looking for any sort of tenant who’s not reliant on basically a private sector job.

Dion:
Correct. But diversified, I wouldn’t want a portfolio of 100% military if there was a BRAC meeting and JBLM closed down base realignment and closure meeting or if the section eight program gets defunded or whatever could happen in the future or gets a pause in payments. So about a third ratio makes me sleep like a baby.

Dave:
That’s interesting. Yeah, I like this one. I mostly invest in downtown areas in bigger cities. And so my primary tenants are what you would call dinks, right? Double income, no kids, which usually pay high, but they turnover a lot for sure. These people move every year, every two years. That’s just part of the game. Luckily I invest in places where you can usually do that without a vacancy, but it’s definitely a sort of an opposite sort of strategy. I have bought in some solid school districts and I’ve always used that as a strategy or I’ve started using that as a strategy to avoid vacancy. But it sounds like you’ve taken the exact opposite approach. Pretty interesting.

Dion:
Yeah. So I’ve had tenants that have lost their job and never missed a day of rent. So if you’re in a good school district, in a good area and you have two dinks high income, I have what I call dink wads dual income, no kids with a dog.

Speaker 3:
And I’ve

Dion:
Got like three couples that fit that bill. And I like the class C rentals because class B or A, the higher end, more luxury, higher rents. If somebody loses $150,000 a year job, it’s kind of hard to replace it.

Speaker 3:
That’s true.

Dion:
And unemployment is a big hit to what they were you’re making versus my police officer, my school teacher, my truck driver that’s making 20 to $30 an hour loses their job unemployment covers their bills for the month or two. And getting a job that pays almost the same is not easy, but a lot easier than finding that $150,000 job replacement.

Dave:
This makes a lot of sense. I think my general feeling is just trying to make sure that you’re matching the right tenants to the right assets like you’re doing. You know what these types of people that you’re trying to attract are looking for. You’re not overbuying for those tenants. You’re not under buying for those tenants. You found product market fit for the type of portfolio that you want to build. And there’s no right answer here. I think some people might do the opposite, but I like your approach. I think it’s pretty interesting. Alright, so you actually hit on another deism you said just a minute ago about not diversifying into other asset classes. It sounds like maybe this started because of necessity, just given your financial situation in 2008. Is that why or was there another motivation there?

Dion:
So when I started educating myself, I found BiggerPockets. I found Rich Dad, poor dad, but I also found a lot of talks from Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger and I watched a couple of panel discussions. Warren Buffet would talk about diversifying and then there’s guys like Kevin O’Leary, Mr Wonderful, that says no more than 20% in one asset class, no more than 5% in any one asset. So they’re big diversification cheerleaders. But Charlie Munger, who was Warren Buffett’s partner for decades, actually one time said, diversifying is the dumbest thing you can do. You’re going to master three or four asset classes just to pick one asset class and master it to go from poor to wealthy. Once you’re wealthy, you can diversify to protect your wealth, but if you diversify on the path to becoming wealthy, you never will. And I looked at that and I thought, well, I don’t understand stocks.
I don’t have a lot of money to invest. I can’t house hack a stock. I’m not an entrepreneur in any way. I’m a W2 employee. I’ve been a marine, a cop, a truck driver, a CDL instructor, like creating business, not my thing, but taking the money I make from a W2 job and putting it to work in something that takes two hours a month to manage that I can handle. So I’m 100% focused in real estate. I diversified by having one third military section eight and working with retired tenants. But I also diversified the smaller my portfolio was, the more important this was. But I wanted my properties at least 10 miles apart. And in Washington that puts me in different counties or at least in different cities. Interesting. So that if the base closes or the port goes on strike or the hospital, something happens, only one or two of my properties would be impacted. So I’m diversified by being spread out in one market like two counties in the beginning, but different types of tenants spread out. Net worth now is probably and I account of selling, so paying taxes, paying the agent fees and everything, a little over 3 million, which is a big number compared to
A lot of debt, $17 an hour to having a positive net worth. I don’t think I’m wealthy enough yet to need to diversify. I think a $10 million net worth I’d probably start looking at, I’ll probably buy some stocks or crypto or something, but I understand my asset class and I’m diversified in it well enough to be able to walk away from a job that had golden handcuffs at the end, right? I had been demoted all the way down to president of the company. I had $2 million golden handcuffs and when I walked away, I walked away from that and don’t care because it’s really weird with financial freedom, which your portfolio reaches a certain point, and I think it’s a LeBron quote, but he said, when you don’t have enough money is the only thing, and once you have enough money becomes just a thing. And it was just a thing at that point. So I’m not ready to diversify more yet. I could someday. And I think if you’re just starting out, it’s really important to focus on your asset class, whatever it is. It could be stocks, it could be crypto, it could be running a business, it could be real estate, but pick one and master it.

Dave:
I totally agree with that. I do invest in the stock market quite a lot, but I didn’t for probably the first nine years of my investing career until I was making significantly more for my W2 job than I was spending every month. And I put some of it towards real estate, but some of it towards investing in the stock market as well. All right. Now we’ve done four. So we’ve talked about tenants raising their own rent leases ending in the winter, not good school districts. Don’t diversify. All of these are very, very counterintuitive. We’ve got six more to go. Give us one more.

Dion:
I don’t know that we’ll get to all 10 if we have time, but the one that gets the most controversial responses, none of my properties are or ever will be in A LLC. Oh, really?

Dave:
Interesting. So you don’t have any partners.

Dion:
Exactly. If I had partners, I would’ve LLCs I was going to buy with my friend millennial Mike. We were looking at Gary Deanna buying a five plex together. We absolutely would’ve formed an LLC, purchased that property together, ended up not getting the deal. But all my properties are in my own name, no LLC, long list of reasons why.

Dave:
This is such a big debate that we can’t get into all of it today. But if you want to go probably see the single most discussed topic on the BiggerPockets forum, this is probably the biggest debate. I am the exact opposite. Deion, I own every single property I own in an LLC. Just give me one major reason why you’ve never put an LLC.

Dion:
None of the benefits people expect. That would be the biggest reason. There are no tax benefits. I get every tax write off you do. That’s correct. Except I can’t write off the cost of having LLC, the cost of paying my CPA for each LLC that they file on or renew. It’s

Dave:
A lot.

Dion:
Right. So the second one, if you’re in California and your real estate’s in your own name, like my brother, you’re not rent controlled.

Dave:
Oh, interesting.

Dion:
You put that in LLC, all of a sudden it’s owned by an entity rent control.

Dave:
Oh, I didn’t realize that. That’s really interesting. Okay. Well, I’ve always done it just for the liability reasons because in case someone sues me, I can isolate the assets in each LLC and I started investing with partners and so I’ve kind of just started doing it with LLC and then it just kept going.

Dion:
So if I could, well, the last thing on this before we go to the next one, but if you have properties and you put ’em in LLCs and you continue to buy properties, awesome.
My concern is always that new investor that doesn’t even have a credit score or a savings yet that’s thinking I’m going to form an LLC, I won’t know how to name it. I won’t know how to pay myself from it. I won’t know how to separate my finances. So it’s not commingled. I won’t know that it’s more likely to get me sued. It’s going to make my insurance cost go up. It gets me about a half a point higher on my interest rates for my loans. There’s all these barriers. They don’t even own a rental yet. That’s who I’m always concerned with when the LLC to debate.

Dave:
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. All right, we do have to take a quick break, but we’ll hear five more Dion ISS right after this. All right, we’re back with Dion McFeely. We’ve talked about five of his Dion iss. I don’t think we’re going to have time for all of them, so let’s, I think we’ve touched on a few here. So Dan, why don’t you just name a couple and then we’ll dive into one or two more as we have time.

Dion:
Yeah, I think one that we’ve covered pretty well is I don’t want a big portfolio. So many people when they start, they want a thousand units or 500 units. I’m not even sure I want the 18 that I have now. The other one is I don’t touch my equity. I’ve never done a heloc, never done a cash out refi never sold for a 10 31 yet I might. But the ones that I think really matter, and I get this from Grant Cardone, the first one, it’s why I prefer to invest in a blue state and not a red state. Most landlords say I want to invest where it’s landlord friendly and the landlord tenant laws lean towards the owner and I’m the opposite.

Dave:
I’m so curious about this because I think this is such a subjective thing. What state is better for real estate investors and people treat it like this objective thing where there’s just a right answer and I’ll give you my opinion after this, but let’s hear yours first.

Dion:
You’re a hundred percent right. It depends on the person, the goals, the timeline, where you have trusted boots on the ground, that’s where you want to invest. But one of the main reasons I like to invest in a state like Washington, which you can Google this to verify it’s the highest appreciating state for the last decade.

Dave:
Yes, it is.

Dion:
Mostly because it’s a blue state. They keep threatening rent control every year. It went into session last year, it didn’t come out and just because it was talked about in 2024, my plan was not to do a rent increase. I do 5% every other year after the binder strategy. But since it was talked about and it was in session and it could happen, I went and did the binder with all of my tenants. My rent roll across the board went up $3,300. So about $40,000 in profit last year just because rent control was talked about. Interesting. And then in blue states, there’s a long process for permits. It’s expensive. The threat of rent control limits, investors desire to build here. So there’s less building, which means massive appreciation.

Dave:
Absolutely. Yeah. This is a supply and demand issue. You see in a lot of more red states, permitting is more abundant. And again, there are pros and cons. This probably means housing’s more affordable in those markets. There’s greater housing supply. There are definitely trade-offs here. But if you’re looking at appreciation, blue states definitely have greater appreciation on average over the long run if you look over 10, 20 years dion’s. Absolutely right. I’m curious though, Dion, because you said about rent control, they went up last year, but what happens if rent control actually does get passed? Then what happens?

Dion:
So I can make an entire video out of just that. It makes the landlord stupid rich and it makes more tenants homeless.

Dave:
Yeah, it’s a really unfortunate idea.

Dion:
It is unfortunate. My brother hasn’t raised rent since 2006 on some of his tenants and because they’re talking rent control, he’s probably going to, but I would do 5% every other year. I even mentioned it from 2013 to 2020. I did 5% every other year. Now Washington wants to cap it at 7% per year. And since I won’t be able to do an adjustment for a black swan event, like a pandemic, like an insurance tripling because of fires in California, whatever is going to happen in the future, since I can’t do big adjustments, I’m forced to do 7% per year. So I would get on a $2,000 rental a hundred dollars more in two years
Versus I will now get $140 more per month per year. I’ll triple my income, my profit because of rent control. It’s what people don’t understand. It’s historically been proven. Every city where it happens, rents push up the maximum allowable amount every single year. And then landlords aren’t stupid. So if you have a tenant who falls behind for whatever reason or they were behind when it kicked in, you have three legal ways. You have 90 days to get out. I’m going to rehab the unit. You have 90 days to get out. I’m going to sell the unit. You have 90 days to get out. I’m going to move into the unit. So we make more people homeless in a rising rent situation. We make landlords richer. So last year I reached out to all the legislators and I said, Hey, here’s what happens. If rent control goes in, I get richer. More rents go up. Criteria to screen for tenants goes up. You make more homeless this year. The greed side of the landlord is saying, Hey, maybe rent control is not a bad thing. I don’t mind money. Money’s not a bad thing. It limits more building. It’ll cause more appreciation. I make more money off my rents. The human in me is like, no, I think I’m going to message all those legislators again and say what a bad idea this is.

Dave:
Yeah, it has just been proven time and time and time again to have the opposite of the intended effect. So I am with you. I think it’s just very silly, but I think it is a really important point about this idea that, oh, certain places are landlord friendly, certain places are tenant friendly. First of all, people look at those on a state level and it’s not always the case. You should be looking at them at a metro or at least a local level. And then the other thing is just depends on your strategy. If you are a house flipper, being in a place where there’s constricted supply is probably going to be in your best benefit. But if you want to do build for rent, maybe being in a place where it’s easier to get permits makes sense to you. It really just depends on your strategy. And I think Dion makes a great point of thinking critically and actually just aligning his own beliefs to the places where he’s investing. All right. Deion, I think we have time for one more. Give us your last deism for the day.

Dion:
The last one, and this comes up so much in every format for educating yourself on real estate, is the value add proposition for real estate. It could be the burr method, it could be buying and adding RV pads. It could be anything where you want to buy and add to it as the lazy investor. This is one of my deism where I didn’t want to do that. I invested for 10 years without ever doing one rehab. I finally did a burr after I retired. It’s my first and last one. It’s just too much work, the money that can happen. So my burr made me about $300,000. I’ll just break it down really quick. I bought a duplex for 400,000 off to MLS. I put about so that the contractor said 30, I estimated 50, I set aside 80, and I spent $62,000 rehabbing

Speaker 3:
It.

Dion:
It’s now worth about seven 90. Wow. So if I were to sell or do a cash out refinance, I’d get all my money back plus about 200 and something thousand dollars after expenses of refinancing or selling. So I made a couple hundred thousand dollars. It’s absolutely not worth it. It took 10 months. I would rather had 10 months scuba diving in Thailand and Columbia than 10 months managing a rental. If I was working full time, I wouldn’t have had the time to manage the rehab as much as I did. So it probably would’ve costed more and taken longer to do so in growth mode. So many people get excited about the burb because they hear none of my money is in the thing, and I’ll make a couple hundred dollars a month and I can rinse and repeat it a few times. So my deism is, I want right from the MLS, I want very little work. I want to spend $2,000 or less usually on the property. I want tenants in place. I’m not looking for value add. I’m looking for time because the magic trick is real estate is a get rich quick scheme. You just have to understand that 10 years is quick.

Dave:
I love that. That’s so good. I always say that’s not a get rich quick scheme. And I always point, I’ve done the math, I did this on a recent episode where I was talking about 10 to 15 years is a reasonable timeline. And you’re right, it is quick. The average career in the United States is 45 years. So if you could do this in 10 to 15 years, that is absolutely by any objective measure quick, except when you compare it to some of the unrealistic expectations that are sometimes pedaled out there.

Dion:
You’re right. It’s not the way to retire early. David Greeny, I actually mentioned one time, he says, if you need $5,000 a month to retire and you get to $5,000 a month in cashflow, you don’t retire. And I agree with him.

Dave:
Totally.

Dion:
That would be silly. One eviction, one pandemic, one eviction, moratorium, whatever, and you’re tanked. But if you need five and you get to 20,

Dave:
That’s the place

Dion:
Now. But it takes 10 years to get to that 20.

Dave:
I don’t know about you, but for me, I’ve been doing this for 15 years. It’s gone fast. I don’t know how you feel.

Dion:
When I was 25, I think a couple of years felt like forever, but when I hit 40, I thought, and this is how I ended a lot of videos, you are going to be alive in five years. You should start investing like it.

Dave:
Oh, totally. Yeah. That’s smart. I like that. Well, yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. And honestly, just on a personal level, resonate with a lot of what you’re saying. I really like these contrarian views and just shows that you’re thinking a little outside the box and thinking for yourself and figuring out what works for you. And I know that when you’re a new investor, that’s not easy. You should be listening to this podcast. You should listen to Dion. You should listen to people and try and educate yourself as much as possible. But as you grow as an investor, you’re into your first deal. Your second deal. Just think critically, decide if the things that are common knowledge or common advice in this industry actually apply to you. And don’t do them just because other people are telling you to do them. Do them because they actually are aligned with what you want. I think that is probably one of the hardest things to do in real estate is like, figure out what you actually want. But Dion, man, you’re such a good example of that, exactly what you’re trying to accomplish, and you stick with it with really incredible discipline and you managed to avoid that FOMO that I think captures a lot of people in this industry. So again, congrats on all your success and thanks so much for sharing your insights with us.

Dion:
No, thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on here and share some of these thoughts with people, because in real estate or investing, there is no one right way, but there’s a one right way for the person watching.

Dave:
Absolutely. Right. Well said. Well, thank you so much for listening. If you think anyone who’s interested in real estate, who’s buying rental properties could learn something from Dion, I bet everyone in real estate could make sure to share this episode with them. We’d really appreciate it. Thank you again for listening. We’ll see you next time.

 

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Dave:
Imagine you have a super low mortgage, like two or 3%, which is not only locked in for 30 years, but you can also take it with you when you move to a new house. It sounds amazing, right? This is the idea behind portable mortgages, the latest concept to help unlock the housing market and improve housing affordability. That’s currently being explored by the Trump administration, but will portable mortgages actually work? Is it feasible to implement them in the United States, and if so, who will benefit today we’re digging into portable mortgages. Hey everyone, welcome to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer. Thank you all so much for being here. We’ve got a fun episode for you today. We’re going to be talking about a new concept that’s being floated right now to address housing affordability and housing affordability has really come to national attention in recent weeks on this show.
In our world as real estate investors and industry leaders, industry service providers, we know affordability in the housing market is a huge issue and regular Americans know that too. But in just the last month, the Trump administration has really focused on housing affordability. First, they called for a 50 year mortgage. We released a whole episode about that a week ago if you want to hear my thoughts on that and just get some information on that, but it’s been a few weeks since that proposal was floated and you should know that it didn’t get a very warm reception from the industry. It still might happen, but from the research I’ve done, people I’ve talked to, even if it does come to fruition, it’s probably not going to have that big boost to affordability or unlock the housing market as much as we really need right now.
And so the administration has actually put out a new idea, which is portable mortgages. Just last week, bill Pulte, the head of the FHFA, which oversees Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said that his team is working on portable mortgages. If you haven’t heard of this term before, the idea here is to adopt a type of mortgage that is used in different countries. It’s used in Canada, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and homeowners there can take their mortgages with them. So imagine that you get your amazing mortgage, something you locked in during COVID, two, three, 4% mortgage and now you want to move, you can bring it somewhere new and this sounds great, right? It’s super appealing to homeowners and borrowers because no longer would they have to pay a much higher mortgage rate if they wanted to move, and therefore, in theory at least it could potentially break the lock in effect, it could drive up transaction volume and potentially even help housing affordability.
But how would this work? Is there a chance that this can happen? Would the intended impacts come to fruition? Are we on the verge of finally bringing some life back to the housing market or is this just noise Today? We’re going to dig into this. First we’ll just go over what a portable mortgage is, then we’ll talk about how they actually work. There are examples of this. Then we’ll talk about why the US doesn’t currently have these portable mortgages to make sense of whether or not this can actually happen, which we’ll talk about. And then lastly, I’ll give you my opinion on whether I think this is going to work. So let’s do it. First up, what is a portable mortgage? It’s basically you get out of mortgage, you take out a mortgage to buy a home. After two or three years maybe you want to go and sell that home and instead of having to go pay off this one mortgage with your proceeds from your sale and then go out, take out another mortgage, when you go out and buy a property, you actually get to bring the mortgage with you.
The way to think about it is the mortgage travels with you as a person. It is not necessarily attached to the home. Now, it is not all magic. This doesn’t just work. Like you could go, say you bought a $300,000 home and you have a 3% interest rate and then you go buy a $500,000 home. You don’t just get to take that rate. In that scenario, you obviously have to modify your loan a little bit. They do something they call the blend and extend, which is basically, let’s just use round numbers. Let’s say you had $250,000 of debt on that first purchase. You can keep your 3% interest rate on that two 50, but if you have to go out and borrow another 150 grand to buy this new more expensive home, you’re going to get that at current rates. But still there is a benefit to that because you’re blending your old rate, which is lower with this higher rate, and you’re still getting a better rate than if you went out and got a new mortgage.
The other thing that you should know is that the amortization does usually restart, so you are going to start paying more interest again as well. So that’s kind of the high level picture of what’s going on with the portable mortgage. Let’s talk a little bit about what it actually looks like in Canada, for example, because it is very different from what we do here in the United States, and I think that’s one of the key things to remember throughout this episode is it’s not like in Canada they have 30 year fixed rate mortgages that people are porting around. That is not what is happening in Canada. When you have a portable mortgage, they’re usually five year fixed rate mortgages. So already just right off the bat, we are already seeing that the potential benefit in Canada, in the Canadian system is not as great as you would want it to be here because in the United States, what’s so valuable about our mortgages is that 30 year fixed rate debt in Canada, they don’t really have an example of that ever working, and I’m going to explain why they do it like that in just a minute.
In addition to the term being much shorter, five years instead of 30 years, in most cases, there are big prepayment penalties, meaning that if you choose to refinance your loan or you sell the property and pay off your mortgage before you intended, you get fined and these fines, the penalty that you could pay for prepayment. Anyone who’s gotten a commercial loan or a DS CR loan probably recognizes prepayment penalties. In the United States, we are lucky we do not have prepayment penalties for conventional mortgages, but in Canada, if you pay off your mortgage early, you could have to pay four, sometimes five figure fees to be able to do that. And this is really critically important. This is the way that the lenders protect themselves in this case to them, a portable mortgage, that is something they can offer borrowers, but they don’t want to originate a loan only for them to keep hoarding it around a bunch of times, then paying it off before they really earn enough interest to justify making that loan in the first place.
And so they put in these prepayment penalties to make sure that doesn’t happen. So keep that in mind as well. So again, five year terms instead of 30 year terms, and there are prepayment penalties. Next, what you should know is you do need to requalify for those mortgages. So it’s not like you just check a box, you actually need to go and do underwriting again. And then the key feature, really important thing that I feel like everyone who’s talking about portable mortgages right now has completely missed, and this is a very, very important piece. Portability is a lender feature. This is not a right that you have. This is something that lenders can offer borrowers but do not have to. So when you look at this, whether it’s Canada or the uk, you see that it’s very different and it’s because these countries designed portability around their loans, which are short-term fixed products with prepayment penalties, which is again totally different from the American mortgage system. So why is the American system so different? We’re going to talk about that in just a minute, but we do have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.
Welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer here talking about portable mortgages. This is something that has gotten super popular in recent days. I see a lot of people very excited about this, but as I just showed before the break, the examples that we have seen of portable mortgages in other countries look very different than they do in the United States. As I said before, the break, it’s shorter terms. There are prepayment penalties and critically, this is not something lenders have to do. It is something they are able to offer. Now I want to talk a little bit about the American mortgage system and why it is constructed in the way it is and some of the pros and cons of our system. And by doing that, it will help us understand if portable mortgages could actually work here in the United States. And this might get a little bit technical, I’m sorry, but we have to talk about how the mortgage industry actual works.
Most mortgages in the United States conventional mortgages have to meet certain requirements. Then they are sold to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac or Ginnie Mae, and then they’re pooled together into mortgage backed securities, also called MBS, and they’re sold off to investors who actually hold onto those mortgages. So most of the time when you’re getting a mortgage from a broker, that broker or even the bank that you are getting that mortgage from, they’re not holding onto your mortgage and servicing your mortgage. If you’ve bought a house before, you’ve probably noticed that you might get your first mortgage payment from one servicer and then like two months later they’re like, actually, we sold your mortgage. Now so-and-so is your servicer. This happens all the time. This is kind of a feature of the American mortgage system and the people who go out and buy these mortgages are banks.
Yeah, they’re holders of mortgage backed securities, but it’s also pension funds, insurance companies. You have family offices, you have hedge funds, you have sovereign wealth funds. They are buying these securitized assets, and I won’t get into all the details of this, but this process of securitization bundling these loans into mortgage-backed securities generally is believed to lower mortgage rates. It lowers the risk by pooling them all together, by increasing liquidity in the markets. It is generally believed to lower mortgage rates. And so we don’t know because we haven’t had this in a long time, but if we broke the securitization of mortgage-backed securities, it is likely that lenders would see that as riskier and they would demand higher mortgage rates. So that is one reason we do this in the United States. There are other reasons, obviously financial reasons for the investors, but it is generally believed that it has a benefit to homeowners and to investors who use these mortgages because it lowers their mortgage rates.
Now, this whole system of securitization depends on predictability. That is kind of the whole idea. That is why when you get underwritten for one of these loans that is going to be sold, they ask the same question and they have very rigid underwriting because they need it to fit in this neat little box. So it can be sold off to investors. These investors, they don’t want exotic mortgages. They don’t want a million different types of loans where you have to go and figure out how risky is this type of loan versus how risky is this type of loan? Or is this person perfectly qualified for this kind of loan? No, they just want one loan product and they want to be able to underwrite that one loan product. That is largely how the mortgage market works in the United States. So that predictability of the loan product and knowing that those mortgage payments are going to stay the same and not really change is really important.
The other piece of this really underpins the American mortgage system is that prepayment of these mortgages are a known variable and they are priced in. I know that in the United States, you know this too, that most common mortgage is a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, but the lenders who underwrite these or the investors who go out and buy mortgage-backed securities are not counting on holding that loan for 30 years. Americans generally speaking, stay in their homes or stay in their mortgages, I should say between seven and 10 years. So they either sell and move or refinance usually seven to 10 years. There’s some variance in that, but that’s generally what it’s, and that is critical to the interest rates that we get on 30 year fixed rate mortgages. If people stayed in their home for 30 years and actually paid off their mortgage to 30 years, our mortgage rates would be higher.
I won’t get into the super details of this, but just think about this logically. If you were a blender and you wanted to lend to someone for seven to 10 years, that comes with some risk, right? It’s very hard to predict what’s going to happen seven to 10 years from now. But if you were lending for someone for 30 years, that is even more unpredictable, right? So you would want higher interest rates, but because we bundle these loans, because they’re so standardized, it is easy for lenders to price in what they’re willing to lend at, knowing that for all these conventional mortgages that are out there, that they will get paid off between seven to 10 years. That’s just how the underwriting and pricing for mortgages works in the United States. If you follow this show, and I always say that mortgage rates are tied to the yield on the 10 year US Treasury.
Why? Because 10 years is the benchmark for how long they are lending to. And so these people who buy mortgage backed securities are basically saying, do I want to lend to the US government in the form of a 10 year US treasury, or do I want to lend to homeowners by buying mortgage backed securities? That’s why these things are so closely correlated. Anyway, this system exists for several reasons. It provides a lot of liquidity. It does keep us mortgage rates lower. It enables things like a 30 year fixed rate mortgage, which no other countries really have. I’ve talked about this a lot on this show, but that is a very rare mortgage feature. The US has really built on this 30 year fixed rate mortgage. And without this securitization, without collateralizing our loans, that would be very difficult. So there are definitely benefits to the securitization model, but it also comes with trade-offs.
There are constraints here too. When a mortgage is packaged and bundled to be sold in mortgage backed securities, it is required that the loan is collateralized with a specific property. If you haven’t heard this word collateralized or it’s basically when you take out a mortgage, that loan is backed by the property that it is helping you buy, meaning that if you default on your mortgage payments, the bank can go after your collateral and they can foreclose on your house basically. And that is a key component of the securitization of our loans in the United States, is that the collateral is explicitly identified. That’s really important. The other thing is that the repayment schedule, what you’re paying and when is already established and it doesn’t really change. The probability of that prepayment is already modeled in and the investor yield is priced. They know what they’re going to make on that.
So this is the trade-off, right? We get lower mortgage rates because lenders get predictability. And the reason why portability could potentially sort of break the American mortgage model is that lenders would lose that predictability, right? They would not have that same level of assuredness. They would not be able to forecast or predict prepayments or how long people will hold onto these mortgages if they’re allowed to just port them and bring them from one house to another. Because if you detach the mortgage from the home, the collateral that we were just talking about changes, whenever you port that mortgage, the duration of how long you are going to hold onto it becomes really unpredictable. The investors may not understand when the prepayment is going to come, what they’re willing to pay for these mortgage backed securities is all of a sudden going to become inaccurate. Basically, portability would be very difficult to work into the American mortgage system as it stands today. Now, could that change? Could the government or could lenders agree to change this? That’s an interesting question, and we’ll get to that right after this quick break. Stay with us.
Welcome back to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer talking about portable mortgages. Before the break, we were talking about why portability doesn’t really work with the system that we have for mortgages in the United States, which is securitizing mortgages, selling them as mortgage backed securities. Before the break though, I did mention could that change? And the answer is yes, but I want to ask you, if you were a lender, would you want this to change? Because I get portability sounds great for borrowers or as homeowners, I would want to use it as a homeowner or as a borrower. I think everyone would agree that’s great for borrowers, but borrowers are only half of the mortgage market. Unfortunately. We also have to put ourself in the shoes of lenders, and when I see all these takes, people talking about this on social media or even the mainstream media talking about portable mortgages, oh, these are amazing.
It can help the housing market. Yeah, they’re putting themselves in the shoes of a homeowner and a buyer, but you have to put yourself in the shoes of a lender to understand if this is really feasible and if it actually would work in the first place. So let’s just imagine that you lent money to a homeowner in 2021 and they’re paying you a 3% mortgage rate, and when you originated that loan, you thought, yeah, they’ll probably pay me off in seven to 10 years. Let’s use seven years as an example. So that was 2021. I’m lending to you at 3%. It’s supposed to pay off in 2028. Now, if someone came to me and said, Hey, can I port this mortgage over to a new home and keep that 3% interest rate as a lender, you are obviously saying no to that, right? Rates right now are at six, six and a half percent.
If you could get them to prepay that mortgage instead and then take out a new loan, you’re going to be doing much better As a lender. I can’t speak for everyone who owns mortgage backed securities, but I imagine they’re all very eager to get those three and 4% interest rates off their books so that they could lend that money back out at a higher interest rates. So in addition to portability, sort of breaking the securitization model and really kind of throwing the entire American mortgage system into disarray, there is very little incentive for lenders to want to do this at all. And so when I think about this, I think that portable mortgages for existing mortgages remains very unlikely. I just don’t see this happening unless lenders are incentivized to do this. That is the only way this happens, right? They’re not going to be willingly extending or porting over loans when they could lend out that same exact money for more money.
There’s just no way they’re going to do that. And the only way they’re going to incentivize that if you pull this thread a little bit is if the government incentivizes them to do that. I don’t know what that looks like. I’ve never seen something like that, but we can imagine maybe the government provides tax incentives or just straight up pays the lenders to make these mortgages portable, and that could work, I guess. But at that point, if you’re just giving away money to make the housing market more affordable, I personally think there are better uses of money to help solve the housing affordability challenges that we have. Then giving banks money, and it’s probably involves either giving homeowners or borrowers money or using that money to figure out ways to build more affordable housing to drive down the cost of construction and permitting to increase the supply of homes.
Those are real long-term solutions to affordability rather than just giving money to the bank. So that’s my opinion on existing mortgages. I think the idea that people are going to be able to take their low rates from COVID move them to a new home without massive government intervention is very unlikely. I wouldn’t be counting on this, even though I agree that as a homeowner and for borrowers, this would be very appealing. I just don’t think it works. It doesn’t gel with the American mortgage system. Now, could we blow up the whole mortgage system? Sure, but I don’t think anyone wants that. Any changes to our mortgage system is likely going to increase risk, increase uncertainty for those lenders. And what do they do when there’s more risk and there’s more uncertainty? Mortgage rates go up. And so even the idea of this is that maybe it would help affordability for people who already have homes.
Mortgage rates would probably go up for everyone else. Not to mention if you did this, even if they somehow magically made this work, it would only help existing homeowners. It would not help anyone who’s struggling to get into the housing market right now because they’d be paying current rates anyway. So I do not see this as a solution to housing affordability. Yes, in theory, if they magically did it, it could break the lockin effect. It could help increase transaction volume, but I don’t see it as a fix for housing market affordability overall. I just think for existing mortgages, it remains very unlikely. Now, is it possible going forward that banks will offer portable mortgages? Sure. I think that might come of this. Maybe a couple of lenders, a couple of banks will say, Hey, that’s a good idea. We want to offer this to our borrowers.
But I promise you this, there is no such thing as a free launch, especially when you’re working with giant banks and lenders. So they will find ways to implement new fees and new costs to compensate for the convenience that they are giving you by allowing portability that will probably come in the form of one shorter terms, two prepayment penalties and three higher mortgage rates. Or in other words, it would look like the Canadian mortgage that I was describing to you before, which may have benefits. It may appeal to certain homeowners. But when you look at the Canadian model, I’m not looking at that and saying That’s way better than a 30 year fix that we have in the United States where I can choose to refinance at any time. Frankly, as an investor, I’d rather take the 30 year fix the thing that we have in the United States right now.
And so yeah, maybe going forward we will have new portable mortgages, but those mortgages will be underwritten differently. The fee structure will be different. The cost structure will be different. It’s not going to be magic. I can tell you that I don’t know exactly what it’ll look like, but it’s not like all of a sudden banks are going to be like, you know what? We’re going to make less money lending to people. That has never happened and is not going to happen. And so if happens at all, it will just be like the current mortgage markets is now, where there are pros and cons, there are trade-offs to different loan products, and maybe having one more loan product could be good for the housing market, but is not magically going to fix everything. So I know people are talking about this. I know people are excited about this, and trust me, I am not excited to rain on this parade.
I don’t want to shoot this down. When I first saw it, I was like, Hey, that’s kind of a good idea. I would like that as a homeowner. But when you think about it, if you really understand the mortgage market, you see that this just isn’t going to happen. It is very, very unlikely to work with our system, and if it did, if they rebuilt the whole system, there are going to be all sorts of negative consequences. Like I said, there just aren’t free lunches with this. If there was an easy fix to the housing market, if there was an easy fix to home affordability, someone would’ve done it already. This is not just something you could snap your fingers and all of a sudden things are going to get fixed. Instead, we need to think about adding more supply to the housing market. We need to bring down the cost of building so more supply can come.
We need to focus on reducing inflation and our national debt so that mortgage rates come down naturally. These are the things that can provide sustainable improvements to housing affordability, which don’t get me wrong, I think is a huge problem. We need to restore affordability to the American housing market, but if you’re asking me, portable mortgages are not the solution, I would love to know your take. So let me know what you think about portable mortgages in the comments. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer. I’ll see you next time.

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A host in North Carolina recently said that one of his habits is refreshing his Airbnb dashboard “way too many times a day,” waiting to see if a sudden dip in views or an unexpected review is about to derail the month. 

One week, his listing disappeared from search with no explanation: no significant competition, pricing errors, or alerts. It simply vanished…and then reappeared days later. He described the experience as “working for a boss who never talks to you, but still controls whether you get paid.”

Almost every seasoned host has felt that same jolt of panic. It’s the emotional tax of relying on a platform you can’t control.

That story captures the underlying tone of the PriceLabs Global Host Report, which gathered data from more than 1,400 hosts worldwide. The big takeaway is that hosting today is not the dreamy passive-income fantasy it’s often marketed to be. It is work (sometimes meaningful, sometimes frustrating, usually rewarding), but undeniably work.

Yet the surprising twist in the report is this: Even with all the stress, hosts are overwhelmingly proud of what they’ve built, and most are planning to expand, not retreat.

Hosting is Flexible, But Hard Work

The report found that most hosts spend fewer than 10 hours per week managing their rental, but they happen in the margins of already whole lives. 83% of hosts work another job, so hosting becomes an evening, weekend, or “whenever-I-can-fit-it-in” commitment rather than a neatly defined schedule.

And the work that fills those hours tells the real story.

The tasks that consume the most time are ones that software can’t easily eliminate. Hosts spend the bulk of their energy coordinating cleanings, navigating maintenance issues, handling guest questions and administrative work like taxes and bookkeeping, and keeping up with shifting OTA policies. These responsibilities are unpredictable, often urgent, and emotionally draining.

What actually eats the most host time:

  • Administrative work, bookkeeping, and taxes
  • Cleaning coordination and maintenance
  • Understanding and adapting to OTA updates
  • Guest communication, complaints, and problem-solving
  • Planning upgrades or new investments in the property

Calendar syncing might be automated, but the messy, human parts of hospitality are not. And that’s where the work truly lives.

Hosts Rely on Airbnb, Even When They’re Frustrated by It

One of the most striking contradictions in the report is that hosts routinely express frustration with Airbnb: its support systems, review policies, and decision-making. That said, after all these frustrations, Airbnb still outperforms every other OTA.

98% of surveyed hosts use Airbnb, and its satisfaction score (4.1 out of 5) is significantly higher than Vrbo or Booking.com. This creates a dynamic that’s both practical and emotional: Hosts depend heavily on Airbnb for revenue, but they don’t entirely trust it.

The data reflects that tension strongly. What hosts worry about most:

  • Visibility and ranking on OTAs
  • Sudden algorithm shifts
  • Guest complaints or unfair reviews
  • Inconsistent platform support

When one platform wields that much influence over a host’s income, even small changes feel huge. This is why many hosts describe hosting not as “passive income,” but as “always being on call.”

The Direct-Booking Wave Is Picking Up Momentum

For years, talk about direct booking came mostly from consultants or advanced operators. Now, it’s becoming mainstream.

Direct-booking websites are the No. 1 category hosts plan to invest more in over the coming year, with 30% saying they intend to strengthen or build their direct-booking strategy. I know Mark from Boostly is grinning ear to ear right now.

The motivation is clear. Hosts want:

  • More control over who books
  • Repeat guests to return without OTA fees
  • Protection from fluctuating search rankings
  • Better control over cancellations
  • A way to build an authentic brand instead of a single listing

This doesn’t mean direct booking is simple. It requires systems, payment processing, guest screening, email marketing, SEO, and a functional website. But the desire for independence is growing, and hosts are recognizing that being “Airbnb-only” puts them in a vulnerable position.

Cleaners and Handymen Are Still the Biggest Bottlenecks

The words “cleaner” and “cleaning” appear 186 times in the free-response sections of the report. Hosts mention cleaners more than pricing tools, market uncertainty, regulations, or even guests. When one part of your operation depends on a handful of local people who may or may not show up, the anxiety never really fades.

Almost half of hosts say finding reliable cleaners is one of their biggest challenges, yet very few plan to invest in turnover technology. The real problem is hiring, managing, and retaining reliable workers, which is something tech can’t fully solve.

This is the one area where even seasoned operators admit they still feel vulnerable.

AI Has Potential, But It Isn’t Reducing Host Workload Yet

Artificial intelligence (AI) is everywhere in the STR conversation right now, but PriceLabs found that its actual impact on host workload remains limited.

Hosts fall into three almost perfectly balanced groups: some embrace AI, some ignore it entirely, and some feel overwhelmed by it. What’s most interesting is that all three groups spend roughly the same number of hours hosting each week. That tells us AI is enhancing quality, but not yet cutting time.

However, hosts do want more guidance from trusted tech companies. Nearly half said they rely on tools like PriceLabs, Lodgify, and PMS platforms to learn better systems and strategies. In other words, the next wave of STR tech won’t just automate tasks; it will teach.

Despite Challenges, Hosts Are Proud and Optimistic

After all the anxiety, platform tension, and late nights and last-minute cleans, this might be the most encouraging part of the entire report: 

  • 69% of hosts say they’re proud of what they’ve built.
  • 41% expect this year to outperform last year.
  • 32% plan to expand their portfolio in 2026.

That isn’t the mindset of an industry in retreat. It’s an industry evolving: growing up and becoming more disciplined, more data-driven, and more entrepreneurial.

Many hosts began by listing a spare room or a second home. But as the report shows, a growing number now reinvest in upgrades, track their financials weekly, and treat their STRs as real businesses. Hosting is shifting from a casual side income to a full-fledged operation. And the people who lean into that shift will thrive.

What It All Means for STR Operators in 2026

Hosts are learning that the key to long-term success isn’t luck or timing: It’s professionalism. Pricing strategy, reliable ops, diversified booking channels, and guest experience are becoming the new baseline.

If 2025 was the wake-up call, 2026 is the year hosts step into the role of true operators. The ones who build with intention will be the ones who win. 

Winning hosts need to:

  • Build strong cleaning and maintenance systems
  • Diversify beyond a single OTA
  • Use direct booking as a long-term play, not a quick fix
  • Embrace tech that saves time without overcomplicating things
  • Treat their listing like a business, not a hobby
  • Actively study market data, seasonality, and pricing trends



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This article is presented by Steadily.

I finally decided to quote out my rental property insurance. Between rising premiums, adding new properties to my portfolio, and hearing other landlords talk about how much they saved with Steadily, I knew it was time.

Here’s a look at the exact process, including why I decided to re-shop my policy, what the quoting process entailed, and what I learned comparing Steadily to my traditional insurer. Spoiler alert: Working with Steadily was faster, easier, and gave me better landlord insurance coverage than I expected.

Why I Decided to Re-Shop My Insurance

Before switching my insurance policy, my setup was as traditional as it gets. Every time I needed to make a change or get a quote, I had to email or call my insurance agent and wait for a response. There was no online portal, easy way to view my policy details, or visibility into my coverage across multiple properties.

As my portfolio grew, that lack of organization became a problem. Premiums were creeping up, some coverages didn’t match my current needs, and I couldn’t easily compare policies.

That’s what caught my attention about Steadily. Their online portal lets landlords view all their policies in one place, update coverage, and access documents anytime. It’s designed for investors managing multiple properties, not just a single home.

The Quoting Process, Step by Step

I started the insurance quote process as most people do: I requested quotes from my current broker and filled out requests across a few online portals. This process meant a long email chain with my agent, who would send forms, ask for information, and eventually get back to me when they could. As an investor with lots of things on my plate, waiting on my insurance agent and making sure I follow up if I haven’t heard anything would likely be something that falls through the cracks.

With Steadily, it was a completely different quoting experience. I went to their website, entered the property address I was requesting coverage for, and the system immediately guided me through a short, clear form that asked exactly what was needed to create an accurate landlord quote. Here’s what they asked:

  • Property details such as year built, type of construction, and square footage
  • Rental type (long-term or short-term)
  • Ownership (LLC or personal name)
  • Coverage start date
  • A few personal details (date of birth and contact info)
  • A list of any past claims

I didn’t have to dig through files or go back and forth via email. I just filled out the form online. It took about four minutes total, with one minute of that simply double-checking the year the property was built.

Once I submitted the form, a message popped up saying my quote would arrive shortly. Keep in mind that I did this at 6 a.m.

Within five minutes, I received a text from a Steadily agent letting me know they would call in 15 minutes to confirm my eligibility for every discount available. When we spoke, they asked how long I had owned the property, if it had a mortgage, whether it was one or two stories, if it had a basement, the age and type of roof, and if I lived within 100 miles of the property. That last question helps determine if a property manager might be needed.

In less than 15 minutes, I had a full quote in my inbox. With my old insurer, that same process could take a full day or more, depending on how quickly my agent got back to me.

Breaking Down the Differences in Coverage

Here’s where Steadily really stood out, not just in price, but in what was actually covered.

Premium

My Steadily quote came in at $867 per year for $231,000 in replacement cost coverage with a $1,000 deductible. Included in that premium was:

This was extensive coverage that is essential for landlords of any portfolio size. For example:

  • Loss of rent coverage ensures you are covered if the property becomes uninhabitable and rent can’t be collected.
  • Mold and remediation is a lifesaver for older homes or humid climates.
  • Liability extensions protect you when working with property managers or contractors.

My old policy didn’t include some of these options—and the premium was more! 

Outside the coverage and ease, I also appreciated that Steadily broke down exactly where my discounts came from, not just vague line items.

What I Learned from the Process

After going through the quoting process, a few key lessons stood out:

  • Investors often overlook insurance as part of asset management. Your coverage should grow with your portfolio.
  • Cheapest isn’t always best, but transparency matters. Steadily made it clear what I was paying for and why.
  • Insurance doesn’t have to be hard. The process took less than 15 minutes, and everything was handled online or by text.

I realized how much time I had been wasting going back and forth with traditional agents when a better system already existed.

My Takeaway and Next Steps

I plan to revisit my insurance quotes annually now that I know how quick and easy the process can be. Even if you’re happy with your current provider, there’s a good chance you’re leaving money on the table or missing out on coverage that better protects your assets.

For investors managing multiple rentals, Steadily’s ability to show all your policies in one dashboard alone is worth exploring.

Final Thoughts

Re-shopping my insurance through Steadily completely changed how I view landlord coverage. What used to be a frustrating, drawn-out process is now simple, transparent, and actually designed for investors like me. The platform made it easy to compare coverage, understand my premiums, and connect with an agent quickly, even at 6 a.m. The result was a better policy, more protection, and a faster turnaround time.

If you haven’t reviewed your policies recently, it’s worth getting a quote with Steadily. 



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This article is presented by Rent To Retirement.

Have you ever sat at your desk, glanced at your pay stub, and wondered how you’ll ever build real wealth? 

You’re not alone. Thousands of BiggerPockets readers earn comfortable salaries, but feel stuck on the treadmill, watching the rich get richer while their own bank accounts grow at a snail’s pace. This story is true for the teachers, engineers, nurses, and nine?to?fivers who believe there has to be a way to turn a modest income into financial freedom. 

Spoiler: There is. 

It involves turnkey rentals, a bit of discipline, and some creative financing. We’ll follow a fictional investor (Sam) through his first six years of buying one rental property per year. 

Sam’s journey is rooted in absolute numbers and guided by experts. This method isn’t a get?rich?quick scheme; it’s a repeatable blueprint that helps maintain a steady paycheck while building a portfolio of cash?flowing assets.

Meet Sam: The $75,000?Salary Investor

Sam is a 33?year?old software engineer in Denver. He makes $75,000 per year and takes home about $4,500 per month after taxes. 

Like many professionals, Sam wants to build wealth, but has little free time for renovations or landlord headaches. When Sam stumbles upon the idea of turnkey rentals (houses that are already rehabbed and leased), he sees a path forward.

But first, he needs a plan.

Budgeting and Saving Without Tears

Sam starts by auditing his spending. He adopts the classic 50/30/20 rule, allocating 50% of his after?tax income to needs, 30% to wants, and 20% to savings. This forces him to rethink his lifestyle: He trims subscriptions, cooks at home more often, and resists the temptation to lease a new car. 

The payoff: He saves roughly $7,500 per year—10% of his salary—earmarking it for real estate. He also builds an emergency fund equal to three to six months of expenses, to build the cash cushion that investors need. 

Fortifying the Foundation

Before making offers, Sam polishes his financial profile. He checks his credit score and pays off lingering credit card balances to reduce his debt?to?income ratio (DTI). Lenders often require a credit score of 680-700, a DTI below 45%, and six months of reserves for investment loans. 

Sam also compares loan programs. Most conventional investment loans require 20% down for single?family homes and 25% down for multifamily dwellings. That amount of money isn’t easy to come by, especially as you are starting your real estate journey. Luckily, there’s another strategy.

Hack Your Housing: Sam’s First Deal

One evening, while reading BiggerPockets forum posts, Sam discovers house hacking. Under FHA guidelines, he can buy a duplex, triplex, or fourplex with just 3.5% down, live in one unit, and rent out the others. Even better, lenders let him count projected rental income toward his qualification. The only catch is that the property must be in livable condition, and he must occupy it for at least one year.

Sam’s agent sends him a listing: a triplex in a solid neighborhood, where each unit rents for about $1,200. The monthly mortgage for the whole building would be roughly $2,400. That means Sam could live rent?free while building equity. 

He runs the numbers with his lender, qualifies under FHA guidelines, and makes an offer. The seller accepts.

The Reality of House Hacking

Living next door to tenants isn’t always glamorous. Sam manages maintenance requests and gets used to occasional noise. He also pays mortgage insurance because of the low down payment and follows strict occupancy rules. 

But within a year, his unit has appreciated, he’s paid down part of the mortgage, and he has a taste of what passive income feels like. Sam now has enough equity and experience to repeat the process.

Choosing the Right Strategy and Market

After moving out of his triplex, Sam decides that his long?term plan is to buy one single?family home every year. Sam sets strict criteria so that he won’t exceed his budget, and he tracks variables like maintenance costs, taxes, and repairs to ensure profitability. 

He uses real estate tools and consults agents to find homes in landlord?friendly areas. He also studies turnkey markets in the Midwest and Southeast, where turnkey companies thrive. 

Assemble Your Team

Real estate investing is a team sport. It takes some work to build up a solid team, and you will have to go through some duds to find the winners. 

After some time, Sam builds a small but mighty crew:

  • Mortgage lender: Someone who specializes in investment loans and can quickly preapprove offers.
  • Real estate agent: A buyer’s agent with experience in turnkey markets, vetting properties, and negotiating.
  • Home inspector: Even turnkey homes need thorough inspections to check roofs, plumbing, and electrical systems.
  • Property manager: Turnkey companies often offer management, but Sam interviews others to ensure responsive service and low tenant turnover.
  • Accountant and attorney: A CPA helps maximize deductions, such as depreciation, while an attorney reviews contracts and ensures compliance with landlord?tenant laws.

He ends up having a terrible experience with his maintenance company, and they cost him most of his profit that year after he did not vet them properly. Luckily, Sam sees the bigger picture and decides to keep going after his wealth-building dream.

Snowballing: Years Two Through Three

After that first house hacking win, Sam feels unstoppable, but knows he does not want to live next door to his tenants anymore. However, the next few years will test everything.

Year two

He moves out of his house hack and buys another property with 5% down. Now there are two mortgages, two roofs to worry about, and double the spreadsheets. He’s still saving every extra dollar and driving the same old car just to keep the momentum going.

Year three

With three rentals, the workload starts to feel heavier. A tenant leaves early, the furnace breaks in the middle of winter, and his cash flow vanishes for a month. The numbers still make sense on paper, but only because Sam tracks every dollar and refuses to quit.

Year four changes everything

After another round of late-night maintenance calls and surprise repair bills, Sam finally decides to do something different. He reaches out to Rent To Retirement, a company specializing in fully managed, turnkey rentals. They help him buy a property in a fast-growing market, with a completely hands-off approach. 

The home is already renovated, rented, and professionally managed. He locks in a competitive interest rate, connects with a reliable maintenance team, and, for the first time, isn’t the one chasing down contractors. The rent comes in, the property runs smoothly, and he finally breathes easy.

Years five and six

Encouraged by the results, Sam keeps going. He repeats the process through Rent To Retirement, adding one new property each year. His portfolio grows, his stress drops, and the income keeps rolling in. What once felt like an uphill battle now feels like momentum. 

By year six, he’s built a solid portfolio, steady cash flow, and a path to true financial freedom (without the sleepless nights).

The Hard Truth (and the Shortcut)

Building a rental portfolio from scratch is doable, but it’s slow, messy, and time-consuming. You have to find the right markets, manage lenders, and handle every surprise along the way.

Or, you can skip all that.

Companies like Rent To Retirement have already built and managed thousands of turnkey rentals for investors who don’t want to spend six years grinding it out. They’ve done the research, vetted the teams, and created cash-flowing properties that are ready to go from day one.

Their process is built for busy professionals with careers, families, and limited time to analyze deals, interview property managers, or learn everything through trial and error. Rent To Retirement identifies high-performing markets across the country, selects properties in areas with strong rent-to-price ratios, and oversees every step, from renovation to tenant placement. Instead of spending nights scrolling listings and guessing which cities are landlord-friendly, you get a property that is already renovated, rented, and professionally managed. 

Rent To Retirement also connects investors with lenders who understand rental financing, accountants who specialize in real estate tax strategies, and long-term property managers who protect your cash flow.

In short, they have already done all the heavy lifting that Sam spent six years figuring out on his own. You simply step in at the point where the property is performing, generating income, and being managed by professionals.

Sam’s story shows that building wealth through rentals is possible (even with a full-time job). Rent To Retirement shows that it does not have to take years of trial, error, and exhaustion to get there.



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Remarkably, Fannie Mae has officially removed the 620 minimum FICO requirement for Desktop Underwriter (DU) submissions, aligning their approach with Freddie Mac’s LPA as of Nov. 15. Approvals are now determined entirely by DU/LPA findings rather than a hard credit score cutoff. Strong compensating factors have the largest impact toward obtaining A/E findings—e.g., larger down payments, shorter terms, excess assets, etc.

Within the first week, some top national lenders reported the following: 

  • Many approved applications came in with sub-620 FICOs—roughly 6% of overall application volume—with some as low as 490.
  • Several brokerages have already begun reevaluating their “fallout” files from the last 60 to 180 days, finding early wins among clients previously declined due to credit.

The 620 minimum credit score requirement—both for single borrowers and the average median score for multiple borrowers—was eliminated for new loan casefiles created on or after Nov. 16, 2025. 

Why Does This Matter to Investors?

The Trump administration is making a concentrated effort to loosen credit and make borrowing more accessible and affordable. 

Another example of expanding affordability is 50-year mortgages and, perhaps more important, mortgage portability. There are active discussions on how to enable homeowners to take their mortgages with them, similar to how consumers can port their cell phone numbers from carrier to carrier. The plan moves with them instead of the mortgage staying with the property. 

This is a novel idea that could have a major impact on inventory. It is estimated that one-third of U.S. borrowers have a mortgage under 4%, creating a “lock-in” effect, with downstream inventory constraints. 

By enabling borrowers to port their pandemic-era low-rate mortgages to either a downsized or upsized property, transactional activity would likely increase while relieving price pressures in some regions. 

Conversely, there are many considerations for how these programs would be implemented, and whether they would actually level the market or skew favorability toward those with lower mortgage rates. 

In the upsizing scenario, guidelines would need to be set for the property type. Could a primary mortgage be ported to an investment property, maybe after a certain period? And if the current loan balance was insufficient to cover the down payment difference on the purchase, will a second-lien program be introduced at more favorable rates? Otherwise, if the spread is large enough, the blended rate could actually be higher than a fresh conventional loan, albeit with the potential for extended amortization. 

From a lender and servicing perspective, mortgage notes would be much more likely to be held to maturity, which could influence rates or loan costs, and new guidelines would be instituted for a new class of borrowers. 

What to Do Now

Real estate investors should pay particular attention to developments in mortgage markets heading into and through 2026, as any significant revisions to “business as usual” could provide tight windows of opportunity to execute. Think of when rates bottomed during the pandemic, or the recently reimplemented 100% bonus depreciation for qualified and participating short-term rental acquisitions. 

Anyone on the qualifying FICO fence, or who was recently declined for conventional loan programs as a result of credit score, including FHA programs, should check in with their lender for an updated prequalification or approval letter.



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