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When I first started investing in real estate around 2006 (yeah, I know, not a great time to start), the biggest dangers to the industry were things like interest rate hikes, too much competition for properties, and of course, a looming, real estate-driven financial crisis. 

After the dust settled, the biggest problem by far was obtaining financing, as every bank was shell-shocked. As the market clawed back but new construction lagged behind, finding quality properties to purchase in an overcrowded market became the biggest challenge. Then, the COVID-19 pandemic hit and exacerbated that problem dramatically (although, helpfully, it sent real estate prices through the roof).

Now, however, our industry is dealing with a new problem we haven’t faced in a long time: politics.

The Political Threats to the Housing Industry

During her campaign, Kamala Harris proposed a law that would strip investors with over 50 single-family homes of the mortgage interest deduction or the ability to offset income taxes through depreciation. While such a law won’t pass under a Trump administration, it most certainly might at a later date when the pendulum swings back to the Democratic side. 

States and municipalities throughout the country have passed numerous anti-landlord laws, amongst which are some that bring back the failed policy of rent control. They have also passed laws prohibiting landlords from discriminating on source of income (24 states and about 150 localities have done so, as of this writing), and Minneapolis went so far as to all but ban the use of credit checks in tenant screening. 

Many other such laws have been passed or proposed. And let us not forget about the eviction moratorium during the pandemic. 

Not all of this is bad, of course. We should recognize that landlords have greater leverage in negotiations with tenants. After all, we write the lease. There should also be some governmental protections for tenants against bad landlords. But the trajectory right now is going way too far in the tenants’ direction, and the rhetoric coming from many activists is even worse.

While you can brush aside loud minorities like the various Maoists yelling to “hang landlords,” there are other, more serious challenges coming our way. One group called People’s Action wants to  “decommodify” housing. It proposes “taxing the appreciation of privately owned homes.” How much of the appreciation would be taxed? All of it, of course. 

Many more organizations are making advocating for tenants their primary mission. The Urban League has been around for a long time, but many others have started, such as Partners for Dignity (formerly NESRI), which wants to “advance models that ensure community control over the use of land and other natural resources and are not reliant on private profits,” or The Eviction Lab at Princeton University that investigates the (overblown) “eviction crisis” in the United States. 

In 2016, Peter Marcuse and David Madden published the popular book In Defense of Housing, where they argue, “Everyone needs and deserves housing. But today, our homes are being transformed into commodities.” And so on and so forth.

It’s gotten to the point where the pro-market Forbes writer Roger Valdez (who has done a lot of good work debunking anti-landlord claims) has predicted, “The United States may see the nationalization of private rental housing by the end of this decade.”

I think this is certainly hyperbole, but it underlines a distressing and deteriorating situation. There are many causes for this, including some rabble-rousers and the mistaken notion that landlords just pocket the rent and make enormous profits.  (This false notion can be partly blamed on the godawful real estate gurus BiggerPockets is at least a partial answer to.) 

Unfortunately, as housing prices have skyrocketed predominantly due to insufficient building and, to a lesser extent, large-scale immigration in the last decade, many younger people cannot afford to buy. Homeownership rates have plummeted amongst the millennials and Generation Xers because housing affordability is about the worst it’s been in American history

This chart quite tellingly illustrates what has happened:

image1 1

The Counterproductive Antagonism Between Landlords and Tenants

While this understandably can cause resentment against landlords, I believe another major component is the completely unnecessary antagonism that has developed in recent years between landlords and tenants on both sides.

One major flaw in theories of class conflict is that classes in a market economy are not fixed. Of course, there’s corruption and nepotism and other issues like that, which can harden the boundaries between haves and have-nots, but such problems are anathema to the functioning of a market economy and can be addressed without resorting to outright socialism.

One of the best illustrations of this point is that virtually every landlord I know was once a tenant. I lived with my parents until graduating from high school, then rented out a place during college, briefly moved back in with my parents after college, and rented for the next five years before moving to Kansas City, where I lived in the basement of our office for two years before moving into a house our company owned before finally buying my own place 12 years after I graduated from college (and seven years after I officially became a landlord). 

My experience is admittedly quite odd. But being a tenant before being a homeowner and then a landlord is standard.

Indeed, 65.6% of Americans own their home, but for those under 30, it’s less than 40%. “Tenant,” “homeowner,” and “landlord” often describe the same person in different seasons in their life. Being anti-tenant is like being anti-your younger self, just as being anti-landlord is—in many cases—being anti-your older self.

There are, of course, terrible tenants. We’ve had multiple tenants do well over $10,000 of damage to a unit. We just had one inherited tenant from a portfolio we bought who decided to cook meth in the house. Fun times. 

There are professional tenants who inspire posts like this one on Reddit, who “had tenants in a rental property ($2,400/mo rent) and have not received rent for 15 months” by taking advantage of absurdly liberal landlord/tenant laws in places like New York. And maybe there are even a few who have reached Pacific Heights levels of duplicity. 

At the same time, we all acknowledge that there are bad landlords. They have a name: slumlords. As investors, I’m sure you’ve seen these places. Sometimes, it’s the tenant’s fault: dog feces on the floor, hoarding, etc. Other times, it’s the landlord: mold, leaking roof, furnace that doesn’t work, etc. 

One particularly egregious example is here in Kansas City at the Independence Tower, which had, according to numerous tenants, “holes in our walls with rusted pipes exposed, vermin falling out of those holes, water creating soft spots in the ceilings, and mold.” The tenants began a rent strike before a judge removed the manager, and the city convinced Fannie Mae to provide $1.35 million to update the thoroughly dilapidated, roach-infested property. 

Of course, overall, most bad tenants and landlords just made bad decisions or got unlucky. They’re not malicious. Most bad tenants just can’t afford to pay. The same goes for most bad landlords. But of course, there are terrible ones in each group. 

We should keep this dynamic in mind as we attempt to rebut the often dubious claims from anti-landlord activist groups. I remember a seminar I attended a long time back where the speaker was talking about tenants as if they were “monsters who live in our properties” or some nonsense like that. From time to time, I see discussions of bad tenant laws where the rhetoric starts to get directed at tenants themselves.

And then there’s this meme I saw floating around, which, to this day, I can’t figure out whether it’s meant to be satire or serious.

image2 1

I mean, we certainly provide an important service, but give me a break.

One anti-landlord subreddit posted this abomination, which the poster said was found in a pro-landlord group on Facebook.

image3 1

I sincerely do hope this was the meme equivalent of a “false flag.”

Now, of course, I don’t believe many landlords actually view their tenants this way, and even the harsh rhetoric that pops up when “pro-tenant” groups propose damaging legislation is mostly blowing off steam. But I do think we all need to be careful about how we talk about and view our tenants. We really should look at them like a real estate agent looks at their clients.

I’m sure many agents thought the $418 million settlement for the class action lawsuit against NAR was absurd. But they didn’t view it as being emblematic of a hostile relationship between agents and clients. Nor should we deal with either bad tenants, hostile tenant groups, or deluded Maoists. (Okay, maybe with the deluded Maoists). 

The vast majority of tenants have nothing to do with those people, thinking more in terms of “good landlords” and “bad landlords” and do not hold some broad anti-landlord ideology.

Sure, the relationship is different from that of a real estate agent, as the relationship lasts longer (although real estate agents should see each client as someone with whom they could do multiple transactions, even if the next may be many years in the future). Furthermore, the tenant needs to pay you on a consistent basis instead of with one lump sum that comes out of the proceeds of a sale. It’s very rare that a client would be unable to pay their agent, whereas it’s unfortunately quite common amongst tenants.

But every sort of agent-client relationship is different. Attorneys have different relationships with their clients than do engineers or financial advisors, accountants, personal trainers, etc. Thinking of our tenants as clients, treating them that way, and talking about them that way will go a long way toward reducing the tensions between tenants and landlords, in the same way, that building more housing will reduce the cost of housing from becoming a permanent impediment to homeownership. 

The Business Reasons for Treating Your Tenants as Clients

A study conducted a while back showed the more a doctor talked with his or her patient, the less likely that doctor was to be sued for whatever reason. The key lesson is that when people feel respected, they are much more likely to be amenable to you and your interests.

There are several major ways this can apply to your real estate business. I wrote a piece a long time ago about how my brother (who was our property manager at the time) not only talked a tenant out of suing us but got her to ask if we would rent another property to her…in one conversation! He did this by putting himself on the tenant’s side

“Make something other than yourself the ‘enemy.’ It could be the lease, the law, company policy, or even the owner. But the enemy is certainly not the property manager. No, you as the property manager are the tenant’s ally. So, for example: ‘I appreciate how hard this is; however, we have to follow the lease, and the lease mandates that we charge these expenses. We legally can’t make an exception for one unless we make it for all.’”

In my humble opinion, this should be the textbook example of how to treat your tenants as clients.

Another key point to remember is that happy tenants renew their leases. Depending on where you live, the biggest operating cost you will have is either property taxes or turnover, which is both the vacancy and repair expenses. There’s only so much you can do about property taxes, but there is a ton you can do to increase how long your tenant stays.

By far, the biggest thing you can do is to provide high-quality maintenance. People rarely renew their lease if their sewer line keeps backing up or the heat never works in the winter.

Second is good communication, especially if a maintenance issue is taking longer than expected. Next is to be fair and respectful when there are issues. 

Yes, you should be firm, of course. Being a pushover will get you nowhere in property management. But there’s no need to take lease violations or late payments personally. Feeling respected is important to everyone, especially people in a difficult and embarrassing situation, like being behind on their rent. 

And then you can even go beyond those basics. The guy who has mastered this is Jeffrey Taylor, or “Mr. Landlord.” His book The Landlord’s Survival Guide is definitely worth reading and takes many successful concepts from the hospitality industry into property management. Taylor has gotten his average stay up to over six years (double the national average) with these techniques, which has substantially increased his profitability (and reduced his headaches to boot). 

Treating your tenants as clients is good for the bottom line.

Final Thoughts

I certainly hope this didn’t come off as a lecture or affront to other real estate investors and landlords. I don’t think genuinely anti-tenant attitudes are particularly common, and I’ve slipped on this from time to time when dealing with a particularly awful tenant or while being berated by some activist group as well

That said, I do want to emphasize we should all be highly cognizant of our attitudes and behaviors in this respect, especially as the natural reaction to criticism from anti-landlord groups is to become defensive. This defensiveness can manifest itself as an attack on tenants in general when it’s a relatively small group of activists who are making most of the noise. Even in its more mundane forms, such defensiveness can create a sense of “us versus them,” which, again, doesn’t make a lot of sense, given we’ve all been tenants ourselves at one point or another.

By the same token, thinking of and treating our tenants as clients will not only reduce any underlying antagonism between tenants and landlords but also make for good business and will improve our industry’s service and profitability on the whole

It’s all upside to take the tenant-as-client approach to being a landlord.

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In real estate, timing is everything. Right now, builders across the country are sitting on excess inventory, offering some of the most attractive discounts we’ve seen in years—up to 20% off properties, plus additional incentives like rate buydowns, price reductions, and managerial credits worth tens of thousands of dollars.

If you’ve been waiting for the right moment to invest, this could be your golden opportunity. The issue is that not every buyer can negotiate these types of deals, and they need a partner like Rent To Retirement to help find the best deals in today’s ever-changing market.

Why Are Builders Offering These Discounts?

At first glance, a surplus of new construction homes might sound like a red flag. But savvy investors see the hidden opportunity. Here’s why builders are making these deals—and how you can benefit:

Affordability challenges have slowed retail demand

Rising interest rates and inflation have priced many individual homebuyers out of the market. With demand cooling, builders are eager to move properties off their books. Instead of waiting for the perfect retail buyer, they’re willing to negotiate with investors—offering deep discounts and attractive financing options.

Builders need to keep construction moving

Homebuilders work on large-scale projects, and financing is tied to progress. If homes sit unsold, it disrupts their cash flow. Builders offer discounts to investors who can buy in bulk, like Rent To Retirement, or close quickly to maintain momentum, creating a win-win scenario.

Institutional buyers have slowed down

In recent years, significant funds and institutional investors dominated the build-to-rent space. However, many have temporarily pulled back, leaving builders with additional supply. Instead of waiting for Wall Street to return, they’re shifting focus to individual investors willing to capitalize on negotiated wholesale pricing.

The Investor Advantage: What Makes This a Unique Time?

The best deals are going to buyers like Rent To Retirement, who are buying in bulk in grade-A markets and have the experience in stacking opportunities to bring in the highest returns for investors. 

As Warren Buffett said, “Be greedy when others are fearful.” While many sit on the sidelines, those who act now can lock in properties below market value and create instant equity. 

Here’s how:

Buy below market value and force equity

Builders are selling at discounts, allowing you to buy at 15%-20% below market value. For example, if a home typically sells for $300,000 but you negotiate a 20% discount, you’re purchasing at $240,000—instantly securing a 15%-20% equity position.

Creative financing: Interest rate buydowns and credits

Builders offer rate buydowns in the mid-to-high 3% range, dramatically improving cash flow. Some deals include managerial credits up to $40,000, reducing out-of-pocket costs.

Tax incentives and bonus depreciation

New construction offers significant tax advantages, including bonus depreciation, allowing investors to write off significant portions of their investment upfront. Talk with your CPA to see what type of benefits you can get.

Low-maintenance, high-quality tenants

New builds come with warranties, minimal capital expenditures (capex), and modern features that attract high-quality tenants—resulting in fewer repairs, less turnover, and better rental income stability.

The Build-to-Rent Advantage

The Build-to-Rent (BTR) model offers an alternative path for those looking for a hands-off approach. Builders are partnering with national and regional lease management companies, allowing investors to purchase new homes integrated into a professionally managed rental system. This provides:

  • Turnkey investment properties with tenants and management in place
  • Steady cash flow with less operational hassle
  • Built-in appreciation and equity growth over time

Financing & HELOC Opportunities

One of the most overlooked benefits of buying below market value is leveraging local credit unions or banks that can provide HELOC (home equity line of credit) options. Since many of these properties already have a 15%+ equity cushion, you can refinance or access a HELOC to reinvest in additional properties quicker than if you buy at the top of the market.

Don’t Miss This Window

Most builders currently offer negotiated wholesale pricing, but this opportunity won’t last forever. Once market conditions shift, prices will normalize, and today’s discounts will disappear. The best investors recognize moments like these as rare opportunities to secure high-quality, cash-flowing assets at below-market prices.

Turnkey investing is ideal for busy professionals or those who prefer a hands-off approach, allowing them to own real estate without actively managing their portfolio. It provides an easy entry point into multiple markets, offering guidance from an experienced team to help investors achieve long-term success. If you’re ready to take advantage of unprecedented builder discounts, creative financing, and tax incentives, now is the time to act.

Reach out to Rent To Retirement today if you think this hard-to-beat strategy could be the right fit for you. Time is money, and they have numerous heavily vetted turnkey investment properties.



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There’s a hidden passive income stream in your basement, backyard, or garage, and only one investing strategy can unlock it. More and more homeowners and landlords are using this strategy to pay their mortgages, pad their pockets with cash flow, and increase their home values significantly. Of course, we’re talking about ADUs (accessory dwelling units), the rental properties that states are begging you to build, and you can do so right now with the home you already own.

To help you affordably (and profitably) build your first ADU, we brought on Derek Sherrell, AKA That ADU Guy, to give you the beginner steps to your first attached (or detached) investment. We’re walking through which properties have the best ADU opportunity, how much an ADU costs to build or convert, how much an ADU will make, how to fund and finance your first ADU, and how Derek builds an ADU from scratch in just 90 days!

Derek often makes an infinite return on his ADU investments, and he’s teaching you how to do the same! If you’re in an expensive state like California, Oregon, or Washington, this strategy is even more effective as you can collect more rent AND do so without local regulations slowing down your ADU progress!

Dave:
There may be a hidden passive income stream in your basement right now, or in your garage or your backyard. Today we’re breaking down one of the most powerful ways to add cashflow to your investment properties or even your primary home. What’s up everyone? I’m Dave Meyer and this is the BiggerPockets Podcast where we teach you how to achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. Today we’re talking about accessory dwelling units or ADUs. And if you’re not familiar with this term, it just means a second living space on one property that could be closing off a basement or an attic to make it into an apartment. It can be putting a tiny home in your backyard or converting your garage into a separate unit. And this strategy has the potential to massively improve the earning potential for any property. Just think about it, creating an A DU can be as simple as putting up a couple of walls, and it can add an entire new rent check into your pocket every month.
Joining us on the show today is Derek Cheryl. You may know him as the A DU guy. He’s an investor who built his first A DU when he was still in high school nearly two decades ago, and it’s been leadingly charge on this affordable and profitable real estate venture ever since. Derek is going to explain to us how to find properties that are undervalued because of their hidden A DU potential share, which a DU options can generate the most revenue for the lowest cost and much more. All right, let’s bring on Derek. Derek, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. It’s great to have you here. Thanks for having me. Glad to be back. Could you just give our audience for anyone who hasn’t listened to some of your previous episodes, just a brief intro to you and your investing career?

Derek:
Yeah, real quickly, guys and gals out there, we plan design, finance, build and hold accessory dwelling units, also known as ADUs. Participated in my first A DU build in 1996 in this small southern Oregon town. And our goal now is to influence as much housing as we possibly can, and then when I die, I’m going to give it all away. And we do this through open source, so we give away free plans all over the country. We teach people how to build the plans that we give away via our YouTube channel, and we don’t sell anything. You’re not going to get an email from me. We truly are just here to help people build more attainable infill housing.

Dave:
You were way ahead of the curve on ADUs because they’ve been getting popular, at least from my perspective in the last few years, but you were several decades ahead, but can you tell everyone how you got started on your first one?

Derek:
I had a high school wood shop teacher, John Wesson was his name, and he handpicked a group of misfit kids that he knew probably weren’t going to go straight to college, and he taught us a skill and he got this group of kids together, me being one of ’em, and we built an illegal A DU for another one of our high school teachers, and I got the bug instantly. I started an apprenticeship in high school, became licensed contractor shortly thereafter, and the rest was history.

Dave:
For those people who don’t know what an A DU is, it stands for accessory dwelling Unit, but tell us a little bit about this asset class in particular. Derek, what about it is so interesting to you and why is it getting popular right now?

Derek:
What’s unique about this asset class is it’s really a hack to building small multifamily in a residential low density neighborhood that couldn’t be construed as maybe more popular place to live. B, it can be financed residentially, so you’re not having to compete with resetting debt or variable rate debt. You can get long-term 30 year fixed rate mortgages on this product, and there’s a lot of land. And the biggest benefit to this strategy is it’s the training wheels to development, and most of the utilities in most cases are already there, so you get this huge cost savings and then on top of that, you already own the land. So those are a few of the benefits. And I’d say one more kind of sneaker benefit is it’s still an underutilized strategy, so I think there’s a lot of room for upside in the next five to 10 years.

Dave:
And just for everyone listening, at least in my opinion, the most common way that people employ an A DU strategy is you buy a single family house or a duplex where there is zoning upside, and we’ve talked a lot about this on the show recently, is trying to find opportunities and properties where the current usage of the property is not up to the maximum allowable buildable space. So maybe you have a single family and you’re allowed to build two units, or they have a specific provision that allows for accessory dwelling units or detached dwelling units. And as Derek said, what’s so cool about it is if you could buy a property that’s a rental property that makes sense just as is the incremental benefit to adding an A DU just seems so appealing because everything you just said, you already own the land, you already have the utilities running there, and so it just seems like the return you can generate on this incremental investment seems really compelling, especially in today’s day and age where it’s harder to find cashflow.

Derek:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with everything you said with the exception of one little piece where the primary house has to make sense.
And as I look back on most of our data, a lot of what we’re buying the primary house doesn’t make sense as a rental. It doesn’t cashflow, it doesn’t even break even in most cases. And I have this argument all the time with people that say, never ever buy a cashflow negative house that is, unless the upside is so great in your financial position, can withstand a little bit of a loss on the front side because the value add on the back is so great. Everything that you said I agreed with except for the primary having to make sense.

Dave:
Well, I’m glad you’re disagreeing. Let’s dig into that a little bit. So when you’re saying you buy this stuff where the primary doesn’t make sense given your business, you just know that you’re going to do an A DU, so does that mean within a year it makes sense or two years? What sort of timeframe do you give yourself to turn it into a performing asset?

Derek:
So everything we’re doing is turned and stabilized and has long-term fixed rate debt in a year or less. And so I know my upside is soon and the things that are really important for the upside and why I care less about how the primary house performs is the primary house in most cases is collateral damage to a few things. First and foremost always is location. Second is going to be access, and then third is going to be infrastructure. So there may be a house that’s sat on the market for a while that’s way overpriced. That would not work as a flip, it would not work as a short-term rental. It definitely wouldn’t work as a long-term rental, but it has alley access, it’s a few blocks from downtown and there’s a brand new sewer main with stubs to the sidewalk, and there’s already a water meter in.
So I come in there with what I call my A DU goggles, and if you guys aren’t watching on YouTube right now, you can see these. If you’re on a podcast, I’m putting on my $5 science class goggles. And what I want people to take away from this point is that you have to look at properties different. These are my A DU goggles. I show up and I look at a property through a different lens, and most of it is how do I save money in the long run by good infrastructure, good access, and good location. So that’s why the primary house is less important. And then for the icing on the cake of this strategy, if you’re in an area that has a zoning upside as we go through this sweeping zoning reform across many states right now, a lot of states are now allowing you to sell these assets. So having the upside of potential, a lot more value add when it’s on its own tax lot is also a big piece of the puzzle of why the primary has less value in the initial underwriting.

Dave:
Yeah, I think with that case, we agree. I’ve been saying on the show for the last couple months now talking about upside in different ways to find properties right now that if you could stabilize something within a year or so, that’s a good deal. It’s not any different than doing a burr, right? When you buy a Burr property, it’s not going to perform right away. And so it’s just about getting it to perform in a reasonable amount of time if you’re doing that within a year. That’s I think a pretty good timeline if the numbers make sense at the end of the day. Can you just tell us a little bit about the sweeping zoning changes? You kind of alluded to just a minute ago, one of the main reasons we wanted to have you back in the news everywhere right now. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what’s driving this renewed or sort of increased interest in ADUs nationally right now?

Derek:
Yeah, for sure. There is, like I said, sweeping zoning reform coming across the Western states. It’s in the Sunbelt, it’s on the east coast as well. Right now we have eight states with overarching outright awesome A DU law, and the main driver is pretty blunt. Cities in high priced areas have done a crappy job for the last 50 years when it comes to their zoning laws, when it comes to their comprehensive plans, when it comes to inclusionary areas. And it’s basically made housing more and more and more unaffordable based on the premise of trying to keep riffraff the poor, the black and the brown out of lower density, higher class neighborhoods. And it’s been a massive fail, and we’ve seen that. So now what’s happening is state legislators are coming in and they’re saying, Hey, cities, you’ve done an absolute insert cuss word here, job of managing housing, and we’re going to tie your hands and we’re going to make some model code for the state, and you’re going to have to follow it.
So overarching state law is the biggest driver, and it starts with the unaffordability of housing. And I am a proponent of more affordable, I’ve been a planning commissioner, I’m an amateur planner. I’ve been literally obsessed with housing for close to three decades, and I’m really careful about affordable housing. So we’re creating more affordable, there’s two kinds of housing in my mind. There’s subsidized, affordable, and then there’s more affordable, more attainable. And because an A DU is on a smaller piece of land and it’s a smaller footprint, it therefore is a more affordable, more attainable option.

Dave:
That’s a really important distinction. I like that you’re calling it a difference between affordable housing, which is often used to describe, like you said, subsidized in some way by the public sector, by either local, state, federal government, that sort of affordable housing. But this a DU development strategy that you’re talking about is more of a private sector style solution to affordable houses just by increasing housing supply, which in theory will at least moderate price growth or just sort of fill a void in the housing market these days because traditional developers just are building fewer and fewer smaller homes, fewer and fewer traditional starter home style properties. And so a DU has seemed to be filling that void for a lot of people. All right, Derek, I want to hear a little bit more about how people can implement an A DU strategy, but first we have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Derek Cheryl talking about ADUs. Before the break, we were just talking about why ADUs are getting so much attention these days. Derek, tell us a little bit about now how you see investors taking advantage of some of these trends, and if there are investors listening who want to turn a profit and help provide more affordable housing in their communities, how do you recommend they get started?

Derek:
I would say the best way to get started is to familiarize yourself with the zoning regulations in the market you’re trying to invest in. And this goes back to one of my friends, Henry Washington. He says, this is a people business. People think it’s a real estate business, but it’s not. It’s a people business. So you have to know the people. And when I say people, I’m talking about the planners, okay, call the city planning and zoning office and say, Hey, I’m a local investor new to this market. I’m looking to do the A DU strategy. What areas would you shop in? Can you send me a zoning map that shows areas that would be a good spot for what we’re trying to do? So I would always tell investors to build relationships in every single market you go into. There’s somebody in that market that’s doing what you want to do. Find those people, whether they’re in the public sector or the private sector, add value to them if they’re private, if they’re public, just go ask questions and familiarize yourself with the zoning regulations. Again, I don’t want to put anybody to sleep with the Z word, but that’s where it starts. I mean, you could have the best location, you could have a suitcase full of money, but if the zoning regulations don’t allow you to complete your strategy, you’re barking up the wrong

Dave:
Tree. And is there anything in particular people should be looking for in the zoning regulation? Obviously you’re looking for permission that ADUs in general are permitted, but are there certain states or regulations or provisions that you think make ADUs easier than other types of implementations right now?

Derek:
Yeah. Yeah. I’ll go over some things to look for. So we’re looking for codes that don’t have off street parking requirements.
We’re looking for codes that don’t have residency requirements. Those are a couple of poison pills in the A DU community. And then the best way to figure out if the city is really a DU friendly is just to ask them how many accessory dwelling unit permits they’ve granted in the last year or the last biennium or whatnot. If it’s two, that’s going to be a tough market. If it’s Seattle and they’re like, we gave out 25,000 sets of plans last year and 19,000 of them were for a DU related builds, you’re in the right spot. Another thing that I always tell investors to look for is look for cities that already have pre-approved accessory dwelling unit plans. And what that allows you to do is completely streamline the process, save time, and save money. And it may not be your exact design, and you still have to go through the zoning process of plotting that footprint on the land that you want to build it. But when cities have free pre-approved A DU plans, they’re a DU friendly.

Dave:
That’s really good. And can you just find that on a local website?

Derek:
Yeah, you can find it on a local website. If I’m looking at, let’s just say Austin, I’ll just type in Austin a DU program, and it’ll usually take you to a city site and within 30 seconds an average intelligence person such as myself can find out if they have a program or not

Dave:
For sure.

Derek:
But never be afraid to call the planning and zoning office and ask them for advice or ask them for resources.

Dave:
Awesome. That’s great advice. And I would imagine when you do find these places, they’re supportive, but are there contractors or builders who specialize in these plans? Because I’d imagine as a contractor you can make a pretty good business really getting good at these pre-approved plans.

Derek:
There should be. I will say unfortunately, the public private partnership is pretty sparse, and that’s because a lot of cities probably rightfully so, don’t want to endorse any individuals,

Dave:
But

Derek:
Always ask the planners, what architects do you like? What builders

Dave:
Get

Derek:
Their plans submitted with just one try? So they’re not supposed to tell you. But again, it’s a people business, and if you’re personable and you ask good questions, they’ll help you.

Dave:
So that’s great. That’s awesome to know. On the zoning side, what about on the property side? Because it seems to me, I live in Seattle now that there is all sorts of different things. Like when I was investing mostly in Endeavor, you saw a lot of basement conversions or simple stuff like that, whereas here you see full on detached 1200 square foot houses being built as ADUs. So what do you find? Derek is the most economical way for people to get into the A DU game?

Derek:
The most economical way to get into the A DU game is by far to buy a primary single family house with some sort of functional obsolescence or split level layout where you can convert a section of that primary house into a legal separate unit. My favorite is look for a house that has a master bedroom and bathroom on one side with an exterior entrance. You simply do some fire and life safety wall work. You do a fire separation wall, you pull the permits, and you can easily turn a standard house into a shared wall side by side duplex. That is by far the easiest. Cool, okay. If the basement already has exterior access, egress windows and a bathroom, that’s not a bad option. So that’s by far the most affordable. That’s where I teach all the first time home buyers to look. You’re literally shopping for a duplex that nobody else can see. Again, a DU goggles, come on. So that’s the most economical, and I would say the most economical and then the most upside are complete different sides of the scale. So the best investment in my opinion is going to be to buy a property that has room to build or convert a standalone detached accessory dwelling unit. Okay, folks.

Dave:
Okay.

Derek:
Tenants want the same things that homeowners want in this order. They want location, they want privacy, and they want amenities. And I’m telling you, we’re seeing this already in lots of markets. There’s more multifamily than ever being built. There’s all this absorption that’s taking place. There’s major concessions. If you have a shared wall or an over under a DU, you’re competing with most of the multifamily. If you have a standalone product with privacy, they have their own little sitting area, maybe they have a fenced yard, you are going to have what we like to call a really high demand low supply product. So although it’s a lot more money to build a new standalone unit, it’s going to be way more valuable. You’re going to have way more tenants, and you’re also going to potentially, if you don’t already have the option to split it off and sell it or to split it off, refinance it on its own note because it’s its own piece of land and really scoop massive leverage.

Dave:
Awesome. Yeah, I see these popping up all over in Seattle. They’re very popular here, but you see them in other markets too. And I’m always just curious how much they cost to build, and I’m sure it’s very regional, but do you have any ballpark numbers for us?

Derek:
Yeah, I’ll give you some really good examples. So I’ll give you the spectrum. So I’d say in high value markets, let’s just say Southern California, San Diego, Austin, Texas, Seattle, Washington, we’re seeing three to $400 a square foot as kind of a semi custom builder grade. For example, A lot of places allow you to build up to a thousand square feet, and we’re seeing those costs anywhere from three to $400,000. And that’s hands off as an investor, higher in a contractor through relationships to get decent volume pricing. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we owning construction and planning, designing, financing, building and holding affordable, simple, designed ADUs. We’re building ADUs for a hundred thousand dollars.

Dave:
Wow.

Derek:
And bigger isn’t always better. Our number one unit, and this is a unit that we give away, you can go to that adu guy.com, the free plans are on the top of our website, big red tab, and we’re building these 600 square foot ADUs for a hundred thousand dollars. They’re valued around three 50 to four, and they rent for anywhere from 16 to $1,800 a month. So

Dave:
What, that’s insane.

Derek:
The spectrum is a hundred thousand to 400,000. Bigger isn’t always better.

Dave:
Derek, I do want to ask you more about those numbers, dig into those and just actually figure out what kind of returns you can get here because they seem crazy. But we do have to take a quick break. But before we do go on break, I wanted to ask you, we just put BP Con tickets for sale up early. Birds are out right now, and I understand you’re coming this year to Vegas and you’re going to be speaking. Can you tell us a little bit about what your session’s going to be on?

Derek:
I’m going to be talking about ADUs, everything about them, how to look for them, how to build them, how to find properties, and how to drive profit while adding needed infill housing. So I’m really humbled to be asked back for the third straight year, and I can’t wait to meet you in person.

Dave:
Awesome. Yeah. Well, very on-brand for you still talking about ADUs. If you want to check out those early bird tickets, make sure to go to biggerpockets.com/conference and get your early bird ticket today. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Derek Sherrill talking about AD before the break. He shared some insights into numbers. And just as a reminder, you’re saying that sort of high price markets, you could expect to pay three to 400 bucks a square foot, but you’re able to build some properties at a hundred thousand dollars that we’re renting for 16 to 1800 bucks a month, which is crazy, right? I mean, those are just remarkable numbers. Even if you bought that for cash, that’s a 20% cash on cash return. So can you just tell us maybe first and foremost, how do you finance these deals? Are you building them and buying them for cash or are you able to get a loan to build an A DU

Derek:
Multiple ways? And I want to say this for our new investors out here, I want to give some clarity. So I’m still to this day, house hacking. I could live anywhere I want in any neighborhood, in any house, and I still house hack. So the best way is to just buy a primary house and then find a way to get the money. There’s a ton of products that are popping up every day similar to a construction loan or to a bridge loan. There’s some really good ones where they’ll give you maybe a hundred percent loan to value on the unbuilt A DU based on your plan set and an appraisal when it’s finished.
The hardest part is getting the project done. Once you have the asset, it’s really easy to get your money back. I mean, it’s the simplest bur ever. Yeah, it’s the simplest refi ever. I mean, we’re able to build so much equity into these, and as long as you don’t over-designed overbuild and overspend, I mean we’re getting a hundred percent of our money back every single time on assets that steal cashflow. So when you mentioned the 20% cash on cash, if we were going to use just a cap rate model where you’re paying cash, well, we’re making infinite return because we have no money in the deal. And it’s also a brand new asset that has very little to no CapEx or maintenance for a long time. I’m not trying to be biased here, but I’m super biased. This is an amazing product.

Dave:
So you are trying to be biased.

Derek:
Oh, yes. And more people need to hear about this. And again, folks, I’ve got nothing to sell. I literally train my competition for free. I just couldn’t be more bullish right now on this asset class

Dave:
In my head, I’m trying to think about the order of operations here. So does that mean if you’re trying to get a single family, do you buy the single family and finance it and then try and get a secondary loan? Or are you saying that maybe you bring your plans to your purchase mortgage and try and get all the financing done at once upfront?

Derek:
My theory is put as little as you possibly can down with a primary purchase, 3.5% FHA, or 5% conventional or 0% if you’re a service member, thank you. And then use the cash reserves. You have to build the A DU because you’re really going to want to refinance out when you’re done with the A DU, especially if it’s on the same lot. Yes, there are products you can show up to a closing table, talk to your lender. If your lender doesn’t know anything about a 2 0 3 K loan or a construction improvement loan or what we call a bridge build to fixed rate loan, which is where you close a loan with one closing fee, one signing, and you have renovation money and maybe a year long time to do that. And then you have the long-term fixed rate product that it rolls into. You’re going to have to use a combination of one of those.
But I just want to tell people that the good old fashioned hard work way is how I started and is how I still do it. So buy a house low down, save up to build the A DU. You might have to get creative call a family member that has money. A lot of employer sponsored plans will let you borrow 50% up to 50 K from your 4 57 or your 401k. You can also use a private loan. You can use a credit card if you have good credit and you can get no interest for 18 months. Do whatever you can. It’s usually a financial stack of multiple different sections of money to build that unit. And then when you’re done, you have this new value, just like a bur, I call it a build bur

Dave:
It is. I mean, the idea behind it though is exactly,

Derek:
And it’s a slam dunk. It’s so much easier than a remodel. Some of my big investor friends that flip 200 houses a year, they’re getting into development and they’re sending me texts just like, oh my gosh, now I get it. It’s just so much easier. There’s so many less variables

Dave:
Because it’s repeatable, right?

Derek:
Oh, it’s a lot more scalable. It’s a lot more repeatable, and there’s just so many less variables. You don’t have surprises when you’re building new standalone construction.

Dave:
And I imagine it’s awesome that you give away these plans for free. I am looking at them right now. They literally, you can just go get ’em on Derek’s website. Well, if you’re just doing this in a neighborhood, you building the same thing over and over again. So you obviously learn how to do it well. The people who are building it learn to do it well, and you just get much more efficient, I imagine over time.

Derek:
That’s exactly right. I’ll give everybody my three tips to saving money on your a DU build. And it’s easier than you think. It’s one is start with a simple design. Okay? A rectangular structure, a single gable roof or a flat shed roof. Every corner we deviate from a rectangle is a minimum of $10,000. So start with a simple design. Wait,

Dave:
Say that again?

Derek:
Every corner we add to a rectangle is a minimum $10,000 costs. So if you have a rectangular A DU and you’re like, well, I want mine to have a bump out, or I want it to be an L shape, or I want it to look like a snout house, or I want to do a pop-out, you’ve got more siding, more corners, more trenching, more gutters, more roof line, more labor, more everything. And just because it’s a simple design doesn’t mean they don’t look custom or cool, or tenants don’t love that. Sure. So anyways, start with simple design, self-manage the project if possible, and do as much of the physical work as you can yourself. And again, for the non builder people, that doesn’t mean you can’t do dump runs on the weekends. It doesn’t mean you can’t do the landscaping or paint or do a bunch of things to save costs, but yes, to your original question, by building the same thing over and over and over, we get this kind of economy of scale.
We don’t have any decision fatigue, and then we’re building property management into our units. So we keep all these, and if somebody calls in with a leaky faucet, we don’t have to guess what cartridge it is. We use the same faucet all the time. We give away all of our resources there too. There’s a shopping list on our website where you can see all the fixtures and knobs and appliances we use, but we just keep it simple. The crews know how to build them, we know how to manage them. And then the only thing we change is the location, orientation, and the color.

Dave:
I would imagine that you and your team can build these things in your sleep now because you’ve done it so many times.

Derek:
Yeah. Our goal always is 90 days, we build two at a time. In 90 days, we just did four in just over 120 days. But if we’re breaking ground and we’re not handing keys to a tenant 90 days later, I’m not happy.

Dave:
Wow, that’s super impressive. That’s faster than any flip that most people can do When you annualize your return there, I’m sure it’s very, very good.
One thing haven’t talked about Derek, but I assume it’s sort of the same principle here, is adding an A DU to properties that you already own. This is sort of what, at least personally has attracted me to it, because I own some properties that do well right now, but have the ability to add a D. And I’m thinking to myself, I could probably build this for $150,000. I can probably use a line of credit to finance it, and I can lease it out for probably 1200 bucks a month in this market. And so even if I finance it, it’s to keep 20% down, that’s 30 grand. I’d have to keep into this deal, and I’m going to be making 15 grand off of it a year. It’s like a 50% cash on cash return for that portion of my investment. It’s crazy. So is this taking off as well that investors with existing portfolios are doing this too?

Derek:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. A lot of the calls I get and emails and dms daily are for that same exact question is, Hey, I’ve got a couple of properties in a good spot that are flat with good access and as opposed to going out and trying to buy something else, I’m just going to improve what I have.

Dave:
Yeah,

Derek:
That’s a great investment. And a few years ago, I would say just do a cash out refinance, lock it in and get your build money there. But the home equity line of credit is amazing. It’s my secret weapon. When I say I’m building with cash, a lot of my cash is just interest only home equity secured to properties that I own. So we’ve got a big HELOC that’s at like 7.5%. It’s prime, it’s at prime rate, and it’s interest only. So we’ll pull the HELOC on a build, and because it’s a month late, we’ll build the unit, we’ll occupy the unit, we’ll refinance the unit, and a lot of times we’ll only pay debt for two and a half months.

Dave:
Wow.

Derek:
So on a hundred thousand dollars a DU at seven and a half percent, it roughly costs us $3,000 to build a hundred thousand dollars asset that appraises at $400,000. That’s insane. Wow. I get a lot of flack for giving a lot of stuff away, and in my mind and in my heart, I just sometimes feel like I’m cheating. It’s like, how could I not give all this stuff away? I can’t believe we’re able to do this. So the home equity is very, very, very, very powerful. But you have to have a plan on the back end to refinance it. And more importantly than the plan, everybody can have a plan. You have to be able to execute. You’ve got to be lendable. You have to have a good debt to income ratio. Don’t go build your first A DU, get this big rent check and go buy a brand new Toyota Tacoma and crush your DTI. So the relationship with the lender is really, really important. So when you’re using the heloc, how do you pay the HELOC back? We don’t like interest only debt long. That’s a short-term play.

Dave:
Great. Very practical advice. Derek. Thank you. I think that financing piece is going to be super important for a lot of people who are thinking about how to do this. HELOCs a great way to do it. Highly recommend thinking about that. This is kind of a perfect situation for when you want to use a line of credit for these short-term types of investments. Derek, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge. Before we get out of here, you mentioned that a bunch of states have done this and they might be coming to more near you. Can you tell us, do you know off the top of your head the states where this is more achievable than others?

Derek:
Oh yeah. Home run states right now, Oregon, California, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Connecticut. Oh, wow. Most of Texas. Not state of Texas, but most of Texas. So there’s about eight right now that have overarching state law with about 10 or 15 in the works. And my prediction is that in the next maybe five to eight years, it’ll be half of the country.

Dave:
Yeah. The trend just seems to be going in this direction. You hear more and more, even if they’re not at states, like you said, local levels. Lot of municipalities are encouraging this because honestly, people don’t have that many other ideas to create more affordable housing. And this is one that has been proven to work. And so I would expect that people will scale it, and as Derek has shown us today, it makes sense on both sides. Right. It makes sense from a investor standpoint, and it hopefully is going to also create some more affordable housing, as Derek had said. Well, thank you so much for being here, Derek. We really appreciate your time, and I look forward to seeing you at BP Con later this year.

Derek:
Awesome. Thanks for having me, folks.

Dave:
Thanks again for watching. We’ll see you next time.

 

 

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Think you’ve blown your chances of achieving FIRE? You haven’t! Just ask Nik Johnson, who spent years growing his nest egg, only to have it completely wiped out with one bad financial decision. Despite losing everything, he managed to rebuild it from ground zero and still retire early!

Welcome to another episode of “Life After FIRE”! Nik and his wife had done everything right. They practiced frugality, saved aggressively, and invested at every opportunity. But everything was turned on its head when Nik decided to empty his retirement accounts and open a car dealership. Within just one year, Nik’s company had gone belly up, and as a result, all the money he had worked so hard to save was gone. It seemed that he had missed his one shot at early retirement, but rather than giving up on that dream, he started over. If he could do it once, he could do it again!

So, Nik found a W2 job, picked up a second job to fast-track his savings, and started throwing all his money at retirement accounts and real estate investments, and now, he and his wife are recently retired! Stick around as Nik shows you how to avoid the middle-class trap, what life looks like after FIRE, and the importance of community once you retire!

Mindy:
Today we are talking with Nik Johnson, a man who built an empire, lost it all and then built it back again. Hello, hello, hello my dear listeners, as you may or may not know, my husband Carl and I have a new YouTube series on the BiggerPockets money YouTube channel called Life After Fire. And as a very special bonus, we’re going to be airing episodes here on the podcast on Wednesdays. Without further ado, let’s get into it. Hi there. My name is Mindy Jensen.

Carl:
And I’m Carl Jensen.

Mindy:
And this is the Mindy

Carl:
And Carl

Mindy:
On Life After Fire, where we talk about what happens after you reach financial independence.

Carl:
Why do we call the show Life After Fire? LAF? Laugh.

Mindy:
Laugh because we’re laughing. No, because we’re talking about and talking to people who are living their best life after reaching financial independence. Alright, we are so excited to get into the show. Nick, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nik:
Thank you for having me. I’m extremely excited to be here and thank you all for the time.

Carl:
Yeah, I’m super excited to have Nick on. So the backstory to this show is I met Nick at FinCon, which is a conference for creators, and he started telling me this story of how he built up his financial situation and then he made a move that did not go well, lost it all, and then built it back up again. He said, if I can get it once, I can get it twice. And I thought that was so cool. No victim attitude, no pity party, just, okay, I did this, I can do it again. So that’s what we are going to be talking about today.

Mindy:
Nick, let’s jump into how you had built it up the first time.

Nik:
Alright, act one. Right. So what happened is that I originally was a computer programmer, so I was application developer. And so whenever I hear Carl say hello world, it makes me giggle a little bit on the inside because if you’re in that world, you understand the backstory to the Hello world. I did that. My wife was a college professor, she taught psychology. That’s how we started off. So everything was good. We were being responsible, living below our means. We were contributing to those 4 0 1 Ks. So we were doing that had started a Roth. So we were like, we understood the basics, the fundamentals, trying to live below our means and investor difference. But what happened is that one day I realized where I was at, I was like, I just didn’t really feel like the life that we wanted we would achieve through just the traditional kind of nine to five that we’re doing by W2 means. So I thought about what could we do to expedite that or even do a complete pivot as far as when it comes to what we were doing in our careers. And so we decided to open up our own business.

Mindy:
I was going to say, what kind of business was this?

Nik:
A little more context here. We live in Jacksonville, Florida and in Jacksonville, Florida, it is spread out. I mean, it is large. For those of you who may not know as far as when it comes to landmass, Jacksonville, Florida is the biggest content as far as contiguous us 840 square miles. It is huge. And so there was two businesses that we thought about. We thought about either doing real estate or we thought about opening a car dealership. And being that we were in Jacksonville and everything is so spread out and kind of giving it a kind of time check on this, this was 2003. So it really wasn’t things like your Uber, your Lyft, your ride shares and things like that. So we say, you know what? We know people who would, if they had to choose between having their own place and having their own car, they would choose having their own car.
And so we decided to go in and start a car dealership. And so some of the challenges that go in with a car dealership, it’s pretty interesting, especially when you’re a kind of small mom and pop kind of dealership. What we were weren’t one of the big names like a Lincoln or a Toyota or anything like that. We’re a mom and pop. And so what happened is that you literally have to wear all the hats. It was a challenge to do that. And first of all, it was just coming up with the initial capital to do that. And so we were like, okay, SBA loans. This again for context, I’m 27, 28 years old, so I know a little bit, but I don’t know everything. So I’m like, Hey, I know we got some money, we got these retirement accounts. Let’s just go ahead and empty those out.
We can use those, we’ll make the money back. And so that was kind of the seed money that we decided to use to start this car dealership. So that is how we decided to get in there. Some of the things that, the challenges that we had was, as I said before, when you’re a smaller dealership, you have to do everything yourself. When you have your own dealership, you have to first of all sell, correct. Most people go to look for cars on the weekends and after work. And so that particular part, you have to be there at the dealership to do that, but then you have to get cars. And so you have to go and get them. And so typically you have to go get them from auctions. And the cars that you get are auctions are typically the cars that, the car that you barely got on the lot to trade in because it was smoking and it would run hot and all this other stuff.
So those vehicles are the cars that typically you get at the auctions. I mean, sometimes you get cars that are off lease and stuff like that. So typically they are in horrible condition. So you go there and you get those cars, and if you are fortunate enough, you might have a team that can go and fix these cars for you, but if not, you got to be able to rent it yourself. So you got to get cars, you got to sell cars, you also have to deal with financing. There’s a lot of paperwork that goes on because it’s facilitated by the state. And then also it’s done funn stuff. Like you have to repo cars. I mean, so it’s a lot of stuff that you have to do. And then literally when you’re a mom and pop operation, I mean I was doing days, it would be nothing for me to do a 16 hour day, five, six days a week just from doing that.

Carl:
Nick, you seem like too nice of a guy to do this business. I can’t picture me walking in there and you’re like, Hey, what can I do to get you into this car today?

Nik:
Carl? Part of the issue that I had is that I found out I was a little too honest for the business. I mean, literally, I’m extremely compassionate. And so when people would come to me and they’d say, Hey, you know what? I’m going through a challenge or whatever, I’d be like, Hey, you know what, I’m big on accountability. So someone would come to me and they’d say, Hey, you know what? I’m having this issue or that issue. And I’d be like, okay. I was like, can you make me whole next time? Or someone would say, Hey, I had a mechanical issue with the car and I had to get it fixed so I couldn’t make it work, dah. So I was very considerate to the plight that people had. But ultimately it kind of made some challenges because the same kind of understanding that I had, the finance companies didn’t have that same level of understanding for me.
And so I realized that I think when it came to personality type, I think the opportunity was good. But a couple of things. First of all, I think I just don’t think my personality fit for the business. Second thing was that when it came to work-life balance, there was very little because I worked so much there. And then also there were some costing mistakes that were made. I didn’t know the business, I didn’t know anybody who was in the car business. So the original model for opening a car dealership going back many, many years ago was that you would buy a car and the hope was that you bought a car where if you got someone to make a down payment, it almost covered the entire cost of the vehicle. So at that particular point, if they never came back again, you were pretty much whole. But as time went on, it was getting harder and harder to find vehicles that someone could come down and make a down payment that would basically cover the initial price of that car. And so you always find yourself being in more and more of a deficit because people couldn’t make those larger down payments. So it was kind of challenging there.

Mindy:
So if you didn’t have a lot of car dealership experience, why did you choose car dealership to open as a business to open?

Nik:
Because literally as I sat down and kind of looked at everything that I felt like was almost a necessity where I was as far as I felt like having a car was a necessity. Number two, I went through, I did do, there was actually some courses that I took prior to doing it and I went through some of the courses. I was like, okay, I feel like I understand this pretty good. And so at that particular point, I feel as though I had a reasonable amount of understanding of the business to get into it. So I went ahead and did that. There were some other things I looked at. I feel as though that the margins were a little too thin. I didn’t want to do something like opening a car wash and some of the other stuff like that. So I was like, you know what? I want something where I had residual income. And really the car dealership is what really interests me about the residual income along with, that’s why I contemplated real estate also.

Mindy:
That’s funny that you say you didn’t want to open a car wash. Carl and I drive past a car wash near us and every bay is filled with people behind it waiting to get in. It’s like the spray it yourself. Stick your credit card in there. I’m like, maybe we should open up a car wash.

Nik:
Yes, those are good. I would take one of those, the kind of manual, Hey, pull up me with the bucket and the sponge. No, I can’t do that. But yeah, with the bays, absolutely. Those are a good model.

Mindy:
My dear listeners. I am so excited to announce that we now have a BiggerPockets newsletter. If you would like to subscribe, go to biggerpockets.com/money newsletter. Alright, we’ll be right back after this. Welcome back to the show. So how long did you own this dealership?

Nik:
My wife and I, we had this dealership for red at a year.

Mindy:
Oh.

Nik:
So I got into it and we were feverishly going at it and me being financially minded, I did keep up with the books and I kind of noticed how things started to go in the wrong direction. And so things kept going and things kept going in around a year. We had literally gotten to the point where we were almost at zero and I went to my, yeah, yeah, Carl, we were almost at zero. And I remember I was getting ready to pin a check to the mortgage company. I was like, well, I was like, well, I know I got this month and I wrote it and I said it. And I went back to my wife and I told my wife, I was like, baby. I was like, I know if this is going to continue to work out, my wife being the person that she is, she was like, okay.
Well, she was like, well, what are we going to do next? And literally I told her, I was like, Hey, I told you Carl, we got it once. We can get it twice. But the thing is that now we have experience and knowledge based on what we did. And so we know what things don’t work. And even if you don’t know everything that will work, you’re ahead when you know what won’t work. And so we just literally went and said, okay, well what do we want to do? I did realize that the type of business was important, who you in the business with? Cause you want to make sure that the team that you have around you has the same drive that you have. So it’s a lot of things that we learned in that experience that we could use moving forward. And from that particular day, I said, okay, let’s get it.
This is the truth. I remember we stopped. We had vehicles that were out, and I literally, I just told the people, I was like, Hey. And literally I told ’em to keep ’em. I was so over it. I was like, keep ’em. Me and my wife actually went back and we ran the numbers at one point to figure out just how much we felt like we ate during that business. And we ate about probably $150,000 in our business. But I was back in 2003, 2004. I mean, we did it, but we had to keep moving forward. So we just had to keep marching. So that’s what we did.

Carl:
Just to be clear, you lost about 150,000 on the business, but you also lost money because you weren’t working your W2. And was your wife working at the time or did she quit as well?

Nik:
Yeah, fortunately, my wife of Flex in between doing the dealership, and she was an adjunct professor, so she would still do some teaching online and in the afternoons sometime. But I was doing the dealership, so I wasn’t getting W2. Also, I lost from the money that we pulled out the market, we cashed out on our 401k. So the opportunity growth on that money was gone and everything else that we had. So yeah, I don’t want to do it. I’m pulling up a calculator right now. Oh man. It was 2004, so pretty much the entire year. 2004. Okay.

Carl:
2004 for 150,000. I’m going to go for it. I won’t say the number. If you don’t want to hear it,

Nik:
It’s all right. You can do it and I

Carl:
Won’t go on suicide watch. It’s okay. Okay. It’s taken a long time to think about it, so it must be a pretty big number with all the zeros, I’m sure.

Mindy:
Remember you would’ve lost a lot in 2008.

Nik:
Yeah, I would have. That’s one thing, the solace, and that’s when I think about real estate piece, I even if I would’ve did real estate, I probably would’ve lost my shirt then too. Cause when the market crashed in oh eight, so I’m like, either way, I probably would’ve got served

Mindy:
Depending on how you structured that business. But okay, okay, you shuttered the dealership, what’s your next step?

Nik:
I often tell people, the quickest 10 years you’ll ever see is from 20 to 30. At that point, I was at the backside of 30 and I was like, okay. I was like, I got to ramp it up. So first thing I was like, I need to start getting some money coming in the quickest way for me to get money coming in. At that point, I had my bachelor’s in computer science, so I was like, I can go be a substitute teacher. They always need substitute teachers. So literally I went and I started being a substitute teacher. I know it was like no lines, no waiting. So I went there and I started doing that as I was looking for employment back into the computer field. So I did that for, I probably did that for around six months, six, seven months until I was able to get full-time employment.
Being a computer programmer again, one thing I did, I always appreciated teachers, but I got an even better and greater appreciation for them once I subbed for a while. So I did that, I did that. I got W2 employment again. And then when I got my W2 employment again, I was thinking about, okay, how can I generate more revenue? At this particular point, the coffers were empty, we were sustaining, but I was like, okay. I was like, how can I go back, try to make ourselves whole, and how can we get to the point where we can go ahead and start trying to get to where we’re just not making it, that we’re actually able to start back investing in doing things like that. And so my wife was an adjunct professor. So what happened is that they had a program at the university where that a spouse could get 50% off tuition.
So I was like, okay. I was interested in teaching and being an adjunct professor as well, but I didn’t have a graduates degree, but I was like, you know what? This would be a good opportunity for me to be able to be an adjunct professor as well if I can go get my graduate’s degree. So I went and I using the program that they had along with the tuition reimbursement that my employer had, it really allowed me to really get my graduate’s degree at no cost, because the way they had it structured is that they didn’t do a lot of, it wasn’t a lot as far as reimbursement. I think it was around six or $7,000 a year, but it was based on calendar year. So in my head I knew it was like, okay, it’s about two years for me to get my graduates degree.
If I start in June of one year and have it roll over the calendar year to the next calendar year, I can kind of get two years in one year. So that’s literally what I did. And so I got my graduate’s degree. I think I have paid maybe three, $4,000 out of pocket for my graduates degree at that point. And when I got my graduates degree, Carl, you probably know this, there aren’t a lot of people in the IT field that have graduate degrees in it. Some don’t have any degree. Yeah, some don’t at all. So it was fertile ground for me to be able to get a lot of teaching assignments. I mean, at one point I had five universities that brought me on as an adjunct professor at that time, and I was literally cycling in and out, different terms. Sometime I was working my full-time W2 and I was doing maybe adjunct, being adjunct for maybe one or two universities a semester at the same time. Just trying to get that money up to make up for some of the time that we had lost.

Carl:
I’ll back up a second. Nick, have you ever read that book? Rich Dad, poor Dad? Oh, yes sir. Yes sir. It kind of annoyed me in a little bit. He makes, and funny enough, I didn’t even realize you were a professor before I started to have this thought, but he kind of makes fun of his supposed dad who was a college professor because that guy was a loser. He’d never become financially independent. So you have to own a business, you have to do this thing. And I don’t like that attitude. You can become PHI just fine by having a normal job. It might not be quite as sexy. It might not be quite as exciting. It might take you a little bit longer, but it’s certainly attainable, man. You were the poor dad for Richard Kiyosaki. Is that the guy’s name? Richard Kiyosaki, Robert Kiyosaki. I always mess that up. So you could stick it Robert.

Nik:
Robert definitely can. And my thing is that there wasn’t as many, it wasn’t like the gig economy it is now. And so I was like, okay. I was like, how can I kind of sit there? And it allowed me the opportunity. Cause all those, most of the universities I taught at were remote online. So it allowed me the opportunity to work into the wee hours of the morning. And so literally, I did this for a series of years. I probably did this around maybe between my W2 and adjuncting. I probably did that for around three, four years and I had to stop. Cause one of the things other than burnout, I know the cause of tuition for college. And if I ever, I said this to myself, if I ever got to the point where I felt like I couldn’t give my students 100%, I would stop.
And so it really got to the point where I was like, you know what? I was like, I’m getting tired. I’m getting burned out. We’re getting to a point where our finances are kind of beyond where we were before we had a situation with the dealership. So let’s go ahead and pull back. Let’s try to enjoy some of our time together and stop grinding so hard. What are you doing right now? What am I doing right here now? Well, my life after fire, we fired in, we hit FI in 2022, so that’s when we hit. So as far as I found out about the fire community in 2020 and somehow or another I, I don’t know exactly how I ended up crossing it. I just remember seeing a podcast, they talked about how you can invest in your HSA. I was like, you can invest in your HSA.
I was like, I didn’t know that. And then it sent me down this rabbit hole and I like binged on just by every episode of Choose Fi. And then they talked about the local groups and all this other stuff, and I met a local group and I got connected with them. So that’s what happened in 2020. And I was talking with my wife and I was like, man, I was like, all that we’ve been doing, I was like, it’s a name for it and I think we’re almost there. And I kind of explained to her some of the stuff and whatever. And my wife has always been extremely supportive to me. And so she’s like, okay, well let’s kind go over the numbers, let’s talk about it. And I talked about, I think in a couple years if everything kind of keeps going the right way, we’ll get there.
So in 2022, we hit our FI number In 2023, my wife came to me and she said, Hey, you know what? I think it would be kind of cool if I know you want to stop working, but she’s like, I think I want to stop too. And so I was like, that’s fine. So in 2023, my wife completely stepped away from being a professor at the university. And in 2024, I stepped away from my W2 job right Now, as far as what life looks like for me, life is good. I can’t lie if someone would’ve told me back when I was flipping a sign over at that dealership that some 19 years later I would have kind of the life where I can do what I want to and go how I want to. I don’t know if I would’ve believed ’em. But at the same time, there is something to be said when it comes to consistency and just really trusting the process.
And so now I’m able to sit here. We volunteer a lot in our kids’ schools. We go to the gym four or five times out the week now. We never thought we’d be gym rats, but we go to the gym a lot. Now we have the ability now we meet up with a lot of people who are in our five community and we’re fortunate. And literally this is how it looks this past Tuesday. It’s a group of us, a PHI group, and we are kind of like the lunch bunch and the happy hour crew. We don’t really play at full price for anything. And so we’re at Top Golf because top golf is always 50% off on Tuesdays. So we’re sitting there, we’re talking about how we’re going to leave from there and go get $3 tacos because it’s Taco Tuesday. And we’re discussing about how we have this ownership of our time and how grateful that we are that we have the community because we would be so alone if we didn’t have the comradery that we get in the community.
So we spend a lot of time in community doing that. And also right now we’re just trying to evangelize financial independence. And so right now I have a podcast that I do on, well, I have a show which is called Everyday Money Heroes, where I go out and the goal of that is to provide information and inspiration to people of all ages to take control of their financial journey. And that’s really what it is. And so literally we talk about kind of the fundamentals of phi, but also I try to spotlight people’s stories who might be a college professor, who might be a worker at a factory, but they stay disciplined. They’re living below their means and they’re just investing in a difference and they’re getting ownership of time back, and that’s really what it’s all about. So I’m thankful that I have the PHI community that I trust the process because I didn’t know anybody who did.
But at the same time, anybody can achieve that and you can just have a life well lived. People look at me and they just like, there’s no way. It’s like, you’re not 65, you can’t be retired. I was like, well, I was like, you don’t have to be 65 to retire. I was like, you can have time ownership at any point if you really have the ability to really stay disciplined. So hopefully I answered your question, Carl, but it really excites me because I know that I feel like if anybody can just understand just the concept that you can do it, I think they’ll be more empowered.

Mindy:
We have to take one final ad break and we’ll be back with more after this. Thanks for sticking with us.

Carl:
Just one quick comment. So you hit on this real strongly. So I’ll just mention in passing the community part of it is so vitally important because like for us, it was kind of the exact same thing for us. Our FI story, we had all this money and we just thought we were saving, but we had no idea what we were going to do with it. Then I discovered Mr. Money mustache. I ran out to the kitchen, told Mindy about it. She’s like, yes, this sounds great. So side note, very thankful to have a spouse who understands and embraces us to what a gift we both have. That’s just incredible.

Mindy:
Yes, what a gift you both have.

Carl:
Yes, yes.

Nik:
He who finds a wife finds a good thing,

Carl:
Yes. But if we didn’t have this community to build on all that, I think we’d feel a little bit lost. It’s nice to be able to, here we’re in Colorado, lots of hiking, lots of outdoorsy stuff, and we have a hiking group that goes out on Thursdays. We have a potluck that meets on Tuesdays, and many of the people in these groups are from the PHI community. So what’s the point of having all this money if you can’t have fun with it? And I think at the core of building a fun, fulfilling life is having good people. And I consider myself a pretty severe introvert. Most people scare me. So for that to come from me is pretty big.

Mindy:
I want to underscore what Carl is saying. Having the community is so important. Nick, what you said about the Choose Fi local groups, Brad Barrett, that was the best thing you ever did besides the podcast and the main group and all the other things great that you have done, but the local groups are so fantastic. Carl and I travel and we’ll go to an area that has a local group and we’ll jump into the group and just say, Hey, we’re going to have a meetup. We’d love to meet local people here. But when you don’t have that community, when you are the only frugal weirdo in the neighborhood, you kind of start to feel like, oh, maybe this isn’t the right thing. Or you think, I know I want to do this, but I feel so out of place. And you do retire, you start reaching out to your friends and they’re all like, what do you mean? On Tuesday at noon, I got to work and having this PHI community, what did you call them? Your phi, your Lunch Bunch and your Happy Hour Heroes,

Nik:
Yes, it’s the lunch bunch. We’re Happy Hour Heroes and Lunch Bunch. That’s what we do. We do not believe in paying full price on food down here in Jacksonville. So if you got apps on your happy hour menu, we will find you. We,

Mindy:
These local groups are everywhere, and if for some reason you live in a place that doesn’t have a local group yet, you can email [email protected] and he will set one up for you. He just wants to have these continue to grow and continue to be supportive of the community. So please, please reach out to Brad if you don’t have a local group. But first, go to choose fi.com/local and see if there’s a local group near you, because there probably is. There’s what is there, like 586 or something like that. They’re everywhere. They’re all across the world. They’re not just in America too. But yeah, I think that’s such an awesome part of your story is just having people to connect with that speak your same language. So Nick, I want to know, we kind of jumped from 2004 a little bit, and then all of a sudden 2022, what were you investing in to get yourself to financial independence, both the type of investment and the type of account that you were putting the money into?

Nik:
Okay, that’s a great segue, Mindy, because one thing I did want to do, I would be remiss if I did not give a shout out to BiggerPockets. Alright, and this is where it goes. So remember I kind of hit that fork in the road where I would go either car dealership or real estate. I did eventually put the car in reverse and go up the real estate lane. So what ended up happening is that the bubble happened. Real estate went down. We did have our home. We had gotten to a point where we were getting ready to build a new home. We had bought some land, we were going to build a new home, but we had our starter home or our first home, and we had lost so much equity. We were like, we’re not going to sell it now. I was like, so we might as well keep it.
So we decided to be accidental landlords, and so we didn’t know a whole lot about the business, and I stumbled upon BiggerPockets. I started going through there and once again binged on that and started hanging out in the forums and stuff like that. Back in 2016, we actually started our first rental. Then in 2016 using some of the knowhow knowledge that we hear from BiggerPockets. From that particular point, we acquired a couple more rentals. We didn’t want a large portfolio at this point. We have four rentals, single family rentals. We do that. So that’s part of our portfolio as far as we do that. Then also we have just retirement accounts tax about brokerage accounts. So basically that’s how we did it. We started off, we got to the point where we were able to start maxing out those 4 0 1 Ks. Then we got to the point where we would max out the 4 0 1 Ks and we would max out the HSAs. We would max out the Roths, and we just kind of did that every year. Then we got to the point where we started maxing all those out. We started putting our money into just kind of VOO and VTI and all the other stuff and just continued to do that. So that was it. So right now at this particular point, we’re probably about 50 50 when it comes to value when it comes to our brokerage accounts, retirement accounts, and equity and real estate.

Mindy:
I love that story so much because what I’m hearing you say is you’re not in the middle class trap, which is what Scott Trench and I call the scenario where you’ve done everything, right, you’re contributing to your retirement accounts, you are building up your home equity or paying down your mortgage, and then you get to retirement or early retirement age, you’re like, I’m a millionaire on paper. You can’t actually access those funds because they’re stuck in your home equity or they’re stuck in your retirement accounts and you can’t access them before age 59 and a half, or in some cases 55. So I love that you skipped that. I love that you’re not falling victim to this by contributing to after-tax accounts as well. So anybody watching who has not started contributing to their after tax accounts yet, now is the time to start doing that. Yes. It’s a balance between, oh, do I want the tax deduction versus do I want to be able to potentially retire early? So take into consideration how old you are, take into consideration what age you want to retire, but you don’t want to find yourself in this middle class trap and saying, oh, now what?

Nik:
Yeah, just to kind of piggyback what you were saying, Mindy, I had heard individuals before me say, Hey, you know what? I went really hard on my retirement accounts, but I didn’t do a whole lot to kind of bridge the gap in between. Even they started to do stuff like Roth conversions, all the other stuff. We still need some living funds someplace. And so that’s what really got me into, okay, let’s get this stuff inside of a brokerage account. Now, I don’t like having to pay the taxes on the stuff that’s outside of the retirement accounts, but it is what it is. So it allows me the opportunity to pull off that stuff if I need to as I’m kind of transitioning and working those other buckets.

Mindy:
I love it. Whoever gave you that information, spot on. Very well done, sir.

Nik:
Could have been you all. I taken a lot of your content, so it could have been you all. I’ll take credit for it. Sure.

Mindy:
Yeah,

Nik:
Absolutely. Mr 1500 gave me that sage advice.

Mindy:
Nick, thank you so much for your time today. This was so much fun. Remind me again where people can find you online.

Nik:
Thank you all as well, Carla, Mindy, folks, I want to keep up with what I’m doing in my life. After five, I can be founded everyday Money Heroes on YouTube and all other platforms. I’m just excited to spread the good news that life after five is what you would think it is and more so absolutely. I look forward to seeing everybody there, and once again, thank you all for the opportunity to come here and share my story.

Mindy:
Alright, thank you so much Nick. And if you’d like this video, please click the thumbs up and don’t forget to subscribe to this channel for more videos, just like Nicks.

Carl:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Life After Fire and with it, Mindy, and I say goodbye.

 

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A single-family home could give you some extra cash flow, but what if there was a way to make six-figure returns from “rentals” that breathe new life into your town? Today, we’ll share a rookie-friendly investing strategy that allows you to do just that, all while using very little (if any) of your own money!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Katie Neason is a big believer in “investing where you’re invested” and has built a real estate business that allows her to make huge returns while revitalizing her hometown of Bryan, Texas. Unlike normal real estate development, which involves new construction on raw land, redevelopment is the process of taking an area that was previously built on and giving it a new purpose. The best part about redevelopment? Your city might actually want you to do it—meaning you could get all kinds of grants and tax breaks to bring your vision to life!

In this episode, Katie will give you a detailed walkthrough of her most recent deal, show you the perfect “gateway” redevelopment project for a new investor (step by step), and teach you how to get started with this strategy using other people’s money (OPM)!

Ashley:
Have you ever wondered how investors turn neglected areas into thriving communities and make really great returns? Doing it today, you’ll learn exactly how that’s done using a little known real estate investing strategy that any rookie can start using.

Tony:
Our expert guest today has built a massively profitable business using this strategy, and she’ll walk you through the exact steps you need to take as a rookie to follow in her footsteps.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast, and I’m Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. And give me a very, very warm welcome to none other than Katie Nee and Katie, thank you for joining us on the podcast today.

Ashley:
Dude, I’m stoked to be here with two famous people. We were just saying we’re so boring. We need some excitement. We want someone with big personality to really bring some excitement to the show and you couldn’t

Katie:
Find anybody. So you

Ashley:
Invited me. Well, Katie, let’s start out with the basic. What exactly is redevelopment and how is it different from regular development? Great

Katie:
Question. Redevelopment just means we’re building things in places where stuff was built before we’re going to breathe life into underutilized buildings or even vacant lots. So redevelopment doesn’t have to do with whether it’s a renovation or ground up construction, it can be either one. What identifies it as redevelopment is were there existing infrastructures like utilities, roads, and versus development, which is like taking raw land and running those utilities to it so that you can then build on it. So if you think of that pasture on the edge of town that had cows on it five years ago and now it’s a 500 home subdivision that’s development. Now with that said, everyone including myself uses the terms interchangeably, but whenever I say development or redevelopment, everything that we do is actually redevelopment.

Tony:
It is so funny. Literally what you said about the cow pastures, you very accurately describe the subdivision I live in because prior to 2017 it was literally dairy farms everywhere and now all these developers have come in and built out the roads, the streets, the schools, the infrastructure, everything. And Katie, I would assume, or maybe you can break it down for us, what is the benefit of redevelopment over existing development? Why does it give you a slight edge when you focus on redevelopment versus doing all the things that a traditional developer has to do?

Katie:
Yeah, some of it is a little philosophical in that development just makes our communities bigger where redevelopment utilizes and maximizes the money that the city has already spent on that infrastructure. So maybe you have to upgrade it or upsize it, but the money has been spent. So price per square foot for the financial viability to the city is higher on a redevelopment than when you think of the money that has to be spent, go an extra 10 miles out and run all that infrastructure there. And then from an investor standpoint, it just lets you do smaller projects that have a bigger impact where a development deal where you’re doing a 600 door apartment building or a hundred lot subdivision, that’s a five multi-year type program where in redevelopment you can do it in 12 to 18 months if you pick the right project, the right size in the right town.

Ashley:
Katie, where are you choosing to do redevelopment and why are you choosing that area?

Katie:
Yeah, so I invest in my hometown and the reason is I strongly believe that you should invest where you’re invested if at all possible. Because when people own businesses and real estate in a community that they know and love, that place will thrive and have unique character that actually draws other people to it versus a cookie cutter town that the institutional investors swept in, built all their products, goes to the next town, builds the same thing, and then we just keep building the same town over and over again. So I strongly believe a nation full of owners is a nation hard to control, which also makes me very happy. And then for us, our asset class is downtown, so it’s not single family rentals, it’s not apartment buildings, it’s not mobile homes, it is downtown. It is literally like a 15 block by five block area. So when we get a lot, we ask ourselves what is the best thing for downtown on this lot to make this neighborhood financially sustainable? And that’s what we build there on that lot. And so our competitive advantage is knowing our geographical area, which is our asset class better than anybody else. So that’s why we choose to do it where we’re at. And it works. I mean the city wants it, we want to do it and financially the numbers work. So we have that benefit where others may not.

Tony:
And Katie definitely want to get into the financials of it. I know you’ve got some pretty crazy cool things you’ve been able to do with the city, but I guess just at a high level, how do you identify a property that’s a good candidate specifically for redevelopment projects?

Katie:
Well, Tony, I think that’s the wrong question.

Tony:
Educate us.

Katie:
I think what you got to know first is what is your strategy and then find the lot that fits the strategy. And so for me, a perfect gateway drug into redevelopment would be like a build to sell town home development of maybe four to eight homes. And the reason I love that is the gateway drug is because it’s beginner friendly and that it’s easy to wrap your head around a single family resident, which is what a town home is only being four to eight units. It’s not overwhelming in scope and size and you’re able to provide a product that is underserved across the country. Everybody has a housing shortage, so you’re able to put this thicker, denser housing in a much smaller footprint. So even though price per square foot, it’s more the overall price point is less than almost any other house in the market, which really reduces your risk.
And it’s like investor friendly. Your investor can understand it, it has a starting point, it has an ending point, and it’s a great way to test out a relationship without getting into a long-term relationship with them. If things go wrong, sell ’em all. You’re out. You never have to be investors again, and you can do it on a single family lot. Our town homes are usually less than 20 foot wide for four of ’em, that’s a hundred by hundred square foot lot. That is like a residential sized lot. So if you can figure out where in your town the city wants that, you can buy deals right off the MLS because you’re creating a deal that nobody else sees.

Ashley:
Okay, Katie, we have to take a short break, but when we come back I want to lay out the exact action plan that a rookie investor can do to follow that exact process of finding the single family home, tearing it down and building the town home. So we’ll be right back with more from Katie. Okay, welcome back from our short break. So Katie, you just laid down the foundation for a plan that a rookie investor could do, looking for a single family home, taking down the home and building these town homes on this. What are some things you need to look for when you’re identifying a lot for this? Do different towns have different zoning where maybe it’s not allowed in every town? How do you actually make this work going from single family to town homes?

Katie:
Yeah, so one thing you need to know is your town developer friendly, and we can go through later how to determine that. But that’s number one. And then number two, you got to figure out where in your town you can build it. And there’s two things you can look at. One is the zoning. So townhomes will be allowed in certain zoning. I would tell you what that zoning is, except every freaking jurisdiction has a different name for it. So mine will be different than yours, but if you look it up, it’ll list everything you can build. So if the zoning allows it, but just because the zoning doesn’t allow it doesn’t mean you can’t do it. So the other thing to look for are other townhomes being built because if they’re being built in an area that isn’t zoned for that, that means your town is friendly towards rezoning it if you’re building what they want in that area, because the reality is the city’s vision changes faster than zoning.
So they may be wanting that, but zoning hasn’t caught up with it yet. But then you’re going to do a bunch of research on the front end. You need to determine how much it costs about square foot to build this town home. Then you’re going to look at all the comps for how much they actually sell for, and then you’re going to find the lot. You need to know that it’s even a financial option before you spend a bunch of time on getting the lot and much of it can be done ahead of time. Now once you find that lot and you secure it, you’re going to do two things. You’re going to go to your city and share your vision, hopefully visually with them and get their buy-in and make sure they’re actually going to support that project. And then the second thing you’re going to do when that lot is under contract is you’re going to hire a civil engineer to do a feasibility study.
And what he’s going to do is give you a concept plan that says, yep, you can get 4, 5, 6, however many townhomes on this lot with parking. This is how it’s going to work. He’s going to look at all of the horizontal infrastructure, which is like the water, the sewer, the storm sewer, and he’s going to make sure that it has the appropriate utilities. And if it doesn’t, what will be required to get the appropriate utilities? And then the number one thing that he’s going to do that is the most critical. You make sure this is part of your deal, he’s going to tell you how much money you have to spend to get the utilities and infrastructure up to speed for what you’re going to build. And the reason that this number is critical is it cannot be estimated. There is no rule of thumb.
Every single lot is going to be different. So you can’t say, well, last time I spent or my developer buddy spent this much, or you will get hosed. But once you have that number, you kind of already know your build to cost, you know what you’re going to pay for the lot, then it’s just a math problem. And so you just drop it in the spreadsheet and see if I can sell ’em at market prices. Is this going to make sense for me? As a matter of fact, I even have a super simple calculator, deal calculator, I’ll make it available to your audience. If they just go, let’s call it katie neeson.com/rookie, then I will make available where they can just download it and it’s super simple spreadsheet to see if it even makes financial sense.

Tony:
Yeah. Katie, what a great breakdown. I want to recap here. I was kind of taking notes. So if we look at 30,000 foot view for the redevelopment process versus just the strategy, and you said the gateway drug, a few small townhomes, and I know you’ve done some really cool mixed use developments and you’ve done a lot, but I like the idea of starting with a super easy townhome. Once you have your strategy, it’s getting to know your city, the zoning which where they kind of leaning on development and redevelopment. Once you got that know your lot or find your lot and then hire a civil engineer to do the feasibility study. I want kind of understand what comes along after this, but just for folks that have maybe never done this before, what’s the typical cost on a feasibility study?

Katie:
For me it’s about 25 to 3,500 bucks. So it’s a cost, but it’s not a huge one.

Ashley:
I thought you were going to say thousand, 25,000.

Katie:
I know and I’m in Texas, everybody says we’re cheap and easy, my husband disagrees. But that’s what people say. But the other thing for the civil engineer is once you establish a relationship with them and when you close on those deals and they get the engineering work, a lot of times he doesn’t charge me anymore for a feasibility study, but initially you should pay them and you should look for an engineer that’s like a one to two man shop because in redevelopment it’s complicated but it’s small. And if you go to a huge firm, they’re going to want to throw you to their junior civil engineer, but it’s more complicated than they’re probably going to have experience with. So try and target that one to two engineer type firm that works in your town because no city hates anything worse than saying, well in Houston we do it. They don’t care what happens in the neighboring city. They only care about their town.

Tony:
So Katie, I guess two follow up questions to that. First, where can someone find a good civil engineer? Are you just going to Yelp and typing in civil engineer? And then second, at what point does the architect plans come into play? Are you doing that before you go out and select the lot or are you doing that after you’ve gotten the feasibility study and you’re finding someone to build something? So where do you find a good engineer first? And then what about the plans?

Katie:
So for the engineer, I mean anything word of mouth is best, but if you don’t know anyone to ask for word of mouth, ask the city. So the city can’t say, oh, we like this engineer. But if you pose it correctly like, Hey, I’m going to do this town home development, what are some other engineers that you have worked with that do developments? Then they can give you a list and at least you have something to call from. But seriously, if you Google civil engineer in your town, a list will come up and then the deal is if you’re not sure if you should hire them, you probably haven’t talked to enough of them. So once you call and explain it enough times, you’ll start to notice distinctions and differences and just ones that you mesh with. Like me, I’m kind of a chick that likes to push boundaries and I don’t get along with everyone and that’s fine.
So I have to find people that our personalities compliment each other rather than just rubbing each other the wrong way. So a lot of it is just a good personality fit. So on the architect, this is critical because technically the architect can also do what the engineer does. You can kind of pick, but the engineer is going to happen before the architect, and so I always choose him to do it because the architect’s probably going to sub out some engineer anyway, but when do you bring the architect in? So once you’ve determined this is financially viable, you are going to go to the architect and say, this is what I’m wanting to build and here is my build budget. I need you to design within that budget because the biggest heartbreak will be when you go to an architect and say, I’m going to build four beautiful townhomes and then he’s going to design this amazing project you’re going to fall absolutely in love with and it never works financially. So don’t even, don’t crush your heart, just go to ’em and say, this is the construction budget that we need to stay within. You’re looking for an architect ideally that knows construction and what a budget is. And again, you want a smaller firm that specializes in redevelopment so that one, they’re not learning on your dollar, and two, they’re engaged in your project. Architects are artists and so they like to do what they like to do. So you want to find one that appreciates the project that you’re trying to do.

Ashley:
I remember when I built my house, my contractor said to me, we had our contractor before we were even ready to build, we knew who was going to build it. And I remember him saying to me as I’m trying to figure out the design and I’m starting to work with the architect, he’s like, just a reminder, every corner costs more money. So instead of having all these jog outs to make this beautiful curb of appeal and all these things, he’s like, just remember every jog out, every corner costs more money. And I ended up just doing one little jog out or two, I guess in one area and said, where my original idea was to have all these different things and it saved me a ton of money by just even that one little piece of advice. So I really like that advice of telling them what your budget is ahead of time and where you can kind of cut costs that aren’t cutting quality.

Katie:
Exactly. What you want to do is pick what is going to be the unique character and that’s what you spend your money on. But everything else generally has to be relatively basic. And all of those trolls that love to hate me on social media, every time I post the cost of my projects, they’re always like, how did you get that roof so cheap? Oh, that’s fake. You have to be lying. I’m like, do you understand how simple a rectangle or sometimes a single slope roof is? It’s because I design it so that it isn’t expensive to build.

Ashley:
So let’s talk about that, the price and where to actually get the money from. So I’m a rookie investor. I don’t have a ton of money per se, so how do I get funding for this and how much capital minimum do I need to have in my bank right now to actually do this strategy?

Katie:
Great news, Ashley, you can be destitute and broke and still do this, but I don’t recommend it. So the reason I love the little townhome project that we talked about is a gateway drug because it’s super clear when you’re raising money. So the very first townhomes we built, we put zero of our own money in it. So how we did it was we raised the equity, which typically is going to be 25% of your all in cost. So if it’s a million dollar project, it’s going to be 250,000. That’s what you’re going to have to put in. There’s not a lot of creative fancy financing in development, so get over that. But that 250,000, you can raise that from your investor. You’re going to find the deal, oversee the development, oversee the construction, sell the product, and then you can split it 50 50 at the end of the project.
So that’s an easy way for an investor to understand it and for you to get in with no money down, but just because you do not have money in the project does not mean you don’t need money. So you things happen in every asset, but in development you have to finish the product or you’re screwed. There is not a great plan B for a half built house and so have some liquidity even if you’re not putting it into the deal. And I would say 15% maybe would be a good number, maybe that may be high just depending on how big the project is. But if you have 25 to $50,000 that you could put in if you needed to, so you wouldn’t have to go back to your investor and you have some liquidity that’ll make you look stronger for the bank, the rest of the money is just going to be a construction loan from your regional or local bank.
Just go talk to a bunch of them. They know development, they do development doesn’t mean it’s easy, but they’re the ones you’re going to get the money from. And so if you’re like, I don’t have experience, no bank’s going to lend to me, yada, yada, present it better, tell them I’m going to use this contractor who’s been doing this a long time. I have this architect, this is what he does. And so you can build a team of support around you without having to be the only person on the team that the bank is looking at as far as experience is concerned.

Ashley:
Katie, just to follow up on that piece, finding the investor, was this one investor that you found that wrote the check, it’s not like you’re going out and doing a syndication and raising money and having to get an SEC attorney and things like that. What was that kind of process like and how complicated is it to add an investor and was it equity investor, was it they were just the debt on the property? Kind of go through that a little more in detail.

Katie:
So you can make it as complicated as you want to. I personally am scared to death to take money from people that I don’t know. So all of my investors, which I only have four or five of them are within my network of people that I’ve known for a long time. And when you’re talking about 250,000, I know that sounds like a lot of money, but it is not a lot of money for an investor who is used to investing. So that can be one investor, it can be two. I think our first deal, we had two, maybe even three investors on it and they just split it equally and they were equity only. Now on the debt side, you can decide we were the personal guarantees you will personally guarantee in a development loan, they’re not going to have some project where you are some loan product where you don’t have to personally guarantee.
I always tell my investors, you will not personally guarantee the loan. So that limits their risk. They know the most they can lose is what they put into it. I personally guarantee it. Now you can negotiate it however you want with your investors. Our investors are always equity investors. The bank, the commercial bank is the only debtor. Commercial banks when they’re doing construction loans don’t really want to have another debtor who would be private money who would be in a second lien position. To them, they don’t really like that. So it’s much cleaner for the investor to just be an equity partner. And for them it’s more beneficial. They get to take a part of the upside in development. Either you finish a product or you don’t. So they’re going to take the downside regardless. So you might as well or they might as well from their perspective also get in on the upside.

Tony:
Yeah, I love the combination of the small local bank. Ash and I are always big proponents of building relationship with those folks because I would assume you could probably walk into your local bank and say, Hey guys, here’s my plan for this new development, what do you think? And you can’t necessarily do that at your local Bank of America or Chase branch, just kind of knock on the bank manager’s door and say, Hey, look at this deal that I’m looking at.

Ashley:
You know what? I want someone to try that sometime though and to see what actually it is kind of an assumption we’re making. What is something actually amazing

Katie:
Happens? I worked for a national bank as my first job out of college. I totally think you should do it. And whenever they tell you, dude, we’d love to do that deal. They’re lying. They have no control over it so they can tell you whatever they want, but it ain’t true.

Tony:
That would be a great YouTube video. It’s like we take the same deal into a bunch of local banks and then we take it to Bank of America and Chase and see what they say. So Katie, I want to look at a deal maybe from start to finish if we can maybe think about a recent deal. I know you got a really cool one, you kind of got the city to pay you for doing this deal, but can you give us the 30,000 foot view on this deal? How’d you find it and what did you end up building?

Katie:
Yeah, so I would say right in the middle, but we’re past middle of a three story mixed use building that has a total South Beach vibe. It’s my most exciting project. I love it so much. So the first floor is going to be retail commercial with one residential loft. All of our mixed use buildings have one residential loft on the first floor because it eliminates the requirement of an elevator. And then on the second floor, we’re going to have seven residential lofts for long-term tenants. And then on the third floor we’re going to have seven residential lofts for short and midterm tenants. So we’ll have three sources or streams of income under one roof, which I love. You have diversity and flexibility and because of the zoning, I don’t have to worry about short-term laws for short-term rentals, it’s always allowed because hotels are allowed in the zoning as well, and I can move it around however I want to within that building.
So on this deal, it was a lot that I think it’s like 115 foot by 75 foot wide. So single family lot had a house on it that was on the condemned list with the city. And the way I found it is I was interested in a totally different building and I heard that the lady who owned the restaurant’s, brothers owned the building I wanted. So I went and ate her Mexican food restaurant and asked the waiter if she was there and she came out and talked to us and I said, Hey, do your brothers own that building down there? And I knew it was her. I looked it up on the appraisal district, figured it out because of the names. And she was like, yeah. I said, well, do they want to sell it? She goes, well, I don’t know, but I have a lot one block over.
Would you be interested in that maybe. And so that’s totally how I found this lot. And then she wanted $150,000 for it, and I thought, that’s too expensive. That would be the most expensive. We’ve paid for a lot. So we went back with two options. We said, we can give you $110,000 for it and I will give you cash or I’ll give you your 150, but I want you to own or finance it on a 30 year mortgage. And so we gave her a little bit down, she financed the rest, and that was a $600 payment that we could totally afford while we did all the design and prepping to get ready to build the building. So that’s how it all started. Now ask me more questions about it or I’ll just ramble on forever.

Tony:
I mean, first I’ve never thought about looking at the condemned properties list for a city actually. Have you ever, I didn’t even know that list existed. Have you ever heard of that before?

Ashley:
Well, actually as soon as she said that I thought of a specific property that I’ve walked by that’s in a great area that has the notice that it’s do not enter, it’s been condemned and it’s basically waiting to be torn down I think. And it made me think like, wow, I should actually find the owners because that is a great location to actually rebuild something there.

Katie:
So your city probably has a building standards commission and all of those go through the Building Standards Commission. So if you find out who is the head of that commission, you can get notice of what buildings are on the list to be condemned. And it’s a little bit like the foreclosure notice. They have a time period to do whatever they need to bring it out of condemnation. So it can be like a cat and mouse game. But yeah, you can definitely track the houses that are on the list to be condemned and torn down by the city.

Tony:
Katie, we’re very much enjoying the story and we want to hear kind of how the seal is continuing to come together. And we also want to hear about your safe framework and how rookies who are listening can leverage that to start doing redevelop in their town. But first we’re going to take our last ad break and we’ll be right back afterward from our show sponsors. All right, guys, we’re back here with Katie enjoying this conversation so much, Katie. So we just started talking about a deal you recently did found a killer deal at a Mexican food restaurant, which is now going to be my favorite place to go find deals. Once you tie this up, I know you’ve got the mixed use, but I guess kind of walk us through, did you already have the idea of making it this kind of three level mixed use or was it after the feasibility study that you said, okay, I think this dream that I have finally makes sense for this lot?

Katie:
Yeah, so it’s on one of the two major thoroughfares in our downtown. So we knew we needed some sort of retail on the bottom, but our number one mission is heads and beds because the more people who live downtown, the more sustainable the commercial businesses can be. And so we’re always trying to move more people in. So it naturally lended itself to a mixed use building. And as far as whether or not it would be feasible, we had done this enough to know, I mean, I think have a 10 foot setback. Other than that, every square inch of this property is going to be income producing. So it’s a, I dunno, 11,000 square foot lot with a 30,000 square foot building or something like that. So those numbers usually will work for you. But I will say this, we spent money on getting the whole building design, which by the way was about $200,000 to put that in perspective.
And that was money out of our pocket to get the architectural civil, all the plans done and then interest rates shot up like a sore an eagle, and we put it on pause. We didn’t know how high they were going to go. It definitely hurt the cashflow and the returns to the investors. And then as they started settling back down and we basically said, Hey, what can we do to juice revenue? I hate running a short-term rental because, well, hospitality is not my gift, but we were like, you know what? This works. If we can treat this kind of like a boutique motel in our downtown with the South Vibe Beach, it totally makes sense. So we were able again, to shift and kind of create the income streams to make the deal viable. So the all in cost of this thing is just over $3 million, 400,000 of that is pre-designed startup costs, working capital, and then it’s about a $2.6 million construction project.
And then when we said, Hey, this building could work, but we need to minimize costs to give us as much cushion as possible in uncertainty, we went to the city. Now this building got picked up by our local news because I had posted a picture of it and the news called me and said, we want to do a story on this building. It looks really awesome. And the city, every time we have to present in front of city council, they’re always asking us what’s going on with that building? So it’s really like an attention getter. So we went to the city and we’re like, look, you guys want this building, the town wants this building, we need help. And so they said, okay, well how could we help? That makes sense. What are you looking for? Why don’t you help us with the water infrastructure, the public parking, the dumpster, all the stuff they love to put on the developers? And they were like, okay, get us a bid. So basically it ended up being about 150,000. We convinced them to reimburse us for about 116,000 of that. So at the end of the project, they will give us $116,000. And what’s awesome is then we’ll just stick that in reserves. So now our reserves are totally funded and we can start paying dividends as soon as the building is stabilized.

Ashley:
Now Katie, who specifically should someone talk to? Is it just walking into the town hall and talking to the clerk? Is it calling the code enforcement? Is it going to the planning board meetings?

Katie:
That’s such a good question. Like I called the city, there’s only 40,000 people there. What does that even mean? So you are looking for the senior development planner. So you want the oldest guy on the team and you want to go in and talk to him about your vision. You are not asking him what you should build on the lot. They don’t know, not their job. That’s not the approach they want. You want to go and show them some pictures and have this amazing idea that aligns with their comprehensive plan and say, this is what I’m wanting to build, but that’s who you’re talking to and you’re looking it up online and you’re getting his first name. If you call and ask for him by title, you’re not going to get him. You’re totally going to get the gatekeeper. So get his name online, call him like your best friends, and you know him, and that’s the guy that you want to try and get in front of

Tony:
Really quick, just I googled my city and I typed in development planner and a few returns came back, but one of them is the development advisory board. And it says that this board meets at 1:30 PM on the first and third Mondays of the month at City Hall. It’s like, man, there’s literally a group of people who talk about developing my city that I didn’t even know existed. And they have their meeting times listed here publicly on the website.

Katie:
Yeah, cities are kind of moving towards that. They’re all different, but they’ll get everybody in the room where you can sit in front of ’em with fire marshal, the utilities company, the city planner, and you all can strategize about your project. Ideally, you’ll get in front of the planner first so that you’re not walking in there and getting attacked by a bunch of people that when you don’t really know what you’re doing, you want to already have talked to someone who’s going to be on your side and kind of fight for you when you don’t know what the hell you’re supposed to say or do. But yeah, those are great meetings to get everyone’s temperature to really know how hard or what the struggles are going to be.

Ashley:
Well, Katie, thank you so much for joining us today on this episode. Before we wrap up though, I just want to know, are there any blind spots that a rookie investor should be aware of before they go into redevelopment?

Katie:
Yes. One is kind of what Tony alluded to earlier. A lot of people come to me and say, I have this great piece of property, what should I build on it? And that is the wrong approach. Figure out what you’re going to do, what you can be the best at, and then go find the property that fits that strategy. And then the dreamer, the one who sees this amazing building downtown, and they fall completely in love with it. And they’re like, that’s the building I want. And they’re so focused on it. Opportunity is flying past ’em and they can’t even see it. And they have zero control over whether that’s going to financially work or if that owner is ever going to sell it to you. So cast a wide net, don’t fall in love. And then you need to know, does your city actually want development?
And you can determine that by looking around. Don’t listen to ’em. They all say there’s a housing shortage. They’re all going to tell you they need more development. They’re liars. We’re looking for action. So are they investing infrastructure, putting in sidewalks, putting in trees, making it pedestrian friendly? And two, are they offering development grants? Google your city grants. If they are, they’ll be on there. Then they’re invested in you being successful and they’ll help you. And then the other thing is make sure your vision aligns with the cities. If I were to try and build what we build six blocks to the east, it would be very different. The city would not let me do it. And I would think they hate development, they hate me, they hate everybody, but it’s not true. Look at your city’s comprehensive plan. See what they want in that area. And then if you want to build that, align your vision. Do not try and build something they do not want. They’re hard enough to work with when you’re pulling in the same direction.

Ashley:
My dad, he owns a building that he runs his business out of, and he is in a great little main street, and there is another investor that has bought up a lot of the properties on that same road. And he approached my dad and said, just so you know, there’s this grant coming out that the town is going to do. You have to fill out an application because the better my dad makes his building, the better it’s going to be for this other developer. So reaching out to other developers too that are already doing things in those areas, or even just the property owners that are in the same neighborhood, the same area view if they know of these things. And my dad actually had me build out a scope of work, like a 1.2 million scope of work and submitted it to get this grant.
And right now he’s in negotiations with the town to try to get the maximum, and they’re trying to barter with him like, whoa, can we take away a little bit of your grant money to give to this other business? And things like that. But it was so interesting to see my dad, who’s never done any kind of development or really hasn’t purchased any property except for their house, their cabin that they own, and then his business to be maybe doing a 1.2 million redevelopment on his property. So if my dad can do this process, you can do this process for going out and getting a grant from your town or village too.

Katie:
I love that. He’s the first mover. That’s what you want. You want the owner occupied businesses to be the first movers, the ones proving that the revitalization is sustainable.

Ashley:
Well, Katie, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Where can people reach out to you and not send you their lot with what they should do with it, but maybe tell you what their strategy is and where they should be looking?

Katie:
I love that. If you just want to follow along the journey, see what kind of crazy projects we’re doing, or just jump on the hater bandwagon, totally find me on Instagram at Katie develops. And if you’re interested in the Build to Sell model, seriously, go to do that download for the Build to Sell deal calculator, katie neeson.com/ what’d we say? Rookie Pod. And it’ll be there for you. And I would love for you to own a piece of your town and make it more beautiful for generations to come. So you can find that at katie neeson.com/rookie.

Ashley:
Thank you so much, Katie, for joining us today. I am Ashley. He’s Tony. And we’ll see you guys on the next episode of the Real Estate Ricky Podcast.

 

 

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You’ve worked so hard to finally achieve FIRE (financial independence, retire early); the last thing you want is your wealth to dwindle or disappear entirely. Unknown to most FIRE-chasers, four financial “horsemen” (of the personal finance apocalypse) could steal your wealth right out from under you, without you even realizing it. What are the four horsemen, and how are we protecting our FIRE portfolios from them?

To make sure you not only become wealthy but stay wealthy, we brought Whitney Elkins-Hutten, author of Money for Tomorrow, on the show to share the best ways to keep your portfolio safe from the four horsemen. Whitney scaled her portfolio from almost nothing to life-changing wealth, and she could have lost it all if she hadn’t learned how to protect it.

Mindy and Scott tag-team to show YOU how to protect your FIRE from these four horsemen, including sharing what they’re doing right now to set themselves up for a successful (and safe) financial future. Don’t let your wealth get drained before OR during FIRE; take these tips to heart ASAP!

Mindy:
We are so excited for today’s episode. We are joined by Whitney Elkins Hued, where she gives a tease of one of the big pillars highlighted in her book, money for Tomorrow, how to Build and Protect Generational Wealth. We discussed the concept of the four horsemen and how these parts could massively impact the longevity of your financial independence portfolio. Scott and I then use this special teaser as a jumping off point for a discussion of what you can do to retain your wealth if you’re working towards financial independence or have already retired early and you’re afraid of losing everything. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me as always is my has money for tomorrow. Co-host Scott Rich.

Scott:
Thanks, Mindy. Great to be here with you. We’re always in an estate of discussion, personal finance topics. Alright, whatever. We’ll move on from that one. BiggerPockets is a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order and then keep it in order because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting. Whitney Elkins Hutton, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast.

Whitney:
Thank you so much for having me. This is such a

Mindy:
Pleasure. Whitney, let’s jump into your financial journey. Where does your journey with money begin?

Whitney:
It actually starts when I purchased my first property in 2002. I bought a house with a significant other and I thought I was doing the responsible thing. Good job, stable relationship. Let’s dive into home ownership, right? But the relationship ended about a month after purchasing the house. Fortunately in this case, everything was under my name, all the mortgage, the deed, all the expenses and utilities too. But I really, I found myself stuck or I felt I was stuck with all of these expenses that I just really couldn’t afford. And this house was, we now call it a bur property, but at the time I’m just sitting here going, oh my gosh, there’s green shag carpet all over the floors and psychedelic daisies painted all over the walls and I don’t have the skills. What am I supposed to do? So I had two choices. I could panic or I could get resourceful.
And so I chose to get resourceful. I rented out every single one of the rooms to cover the mortgage and the expenses. Taught myself how to renovate the property. Mind you guys, YouTube didn’t exist back then. So I was reading a book, the Home Depot 1, 2, 3 book and going to a lot of the Home Depot classes to figure out how to resurface floors and do drywall. About 11 months later, I sold the property and it was really at that point in time that it clicked for me. I walked away with 50 2K in cash at the closing table, which was more than I made in my day job that had me traveling quite often. And that was really a light bulb moment for me because that’s when I realized that if I was going to build wealth, I had to figure out how to stop trading time for dollars and make money work for me, not me work for money. And so that just really set me on the path towards real estate investing. The next few years I was living, flipping house hacking, scaling, and single family rental portfolios, buying multifamily buildings. But I started off with that house hacking and flipping, and if I wasn’t doing flipping, I had another job. And so really that’s where the whole journey begins for me.

Mindy:
That sounds very similar to my journey. I bought a house. Did you buy your house as a primary residence or as an investment?

Whitney:
As a primary residence? Our realtor, yeah. Scott’s like, yay, how’s the heck? But at that point in time, our realtor put the book, rich Dad poured out in our hands, and I read the first two chapters. I’m like, oh, this is really intriguing. Okay, great. We’ve done everything. Check buy below value, we’ve got a property in a great part of town. And then I just skimmed the rest of the chapters and I put down the book. I really wish I had read the rest of the book because I never would’ve sold that property.

Mindy:
I’ve got a lot of properties in my past that I wish I would’ve kept, but that’s not the right way to look at it. It was a great learning experience. It started you on the path. So it is the best thing that you could have done to see that there’s money there. If you would’ve kept that property and just lived in it for a while, maybe you wouldn’t have seen the power of how much money you can make in real estate just by fixing up a property. You did a bur house hack live and flip all together, and BiggerPockets wasn’t even around yet to make those phrases up yet.

Whitney:
Oh no. And I was 103% financed with other people’s money in this deal. So I borrowed $7,000 from my grandfather who, God bless him, he cashed out. I’m sure he was making on 15% on the CD that he had purchased in the 1970s. So this was true love. He cashed it out, gave it to me for the down payment. I closed with the first guys, this is 2002, very different time. I closed with the first and then immediately a second was able to, as soon as the home equity line of credit closed, I was able to cash back out that seven K and give it to my grandfather.

Mindy:
So when you say you close with the first, you close with a second, you’re talking about a first mortgage and a second mortgage

Whitney:
Home equity line of credits.

Scott:
Alright, we’re going to take a quick break, but before we go, I want to announce that we are now offering early bird tickets for BP Con 2025, which is October 5th through seventh in Las Vegas. You can score that early bird pricing of $100 off by going to biggerpockets.com/conference while we’re away. And yes, we will be having a BiggerPockets money track. And yes, despite hosting a personal finance podcast that touts responsible personal finance habits, I love craps a few times a year with a very small amount of money.

Mindy:
Welcome back to the show with Whitney.

Scott:
Whitney, let’s zoom out a little bit here. This is awesome. First foray into real estate investing and wonderful success story there. How did you transition from what I would say treating real estate as a supplement to your job to then building wealth, building really long-term wealth and a portfolio on there? How does your story evolve to that part of the journey?

Whitney:
Well, it took me quite a bit of time because I only knew live and flipping and house hacking. So I did for about five more deals like that. And over that time, that’s when I’m realizing if I’m not flipping, I’m not earning a paycheck. I can’t pay the grocery bill at the grocery store, I can’t pay my utilities. I just have chunks of equity. And so really I pick up a book called Money Master the Game in 2014. And so that book by Tony Robbins really started opening my eyes to how many works and two big concepts that come out of there is one ownership, which I was like, yes, I own assets. And then two cashflow. How do you get cashflow at all different stages of the game? And so I’m the jerk that’s going to our 401k benefits advisor and going, Hey, can we expand our offerings within our 401k?
Can I get part of this money back so I can go invest in real estate and have down payments for single family homes? I get shut down left and and then I really took matters into my own hands in about 2016, and that’s when I bought my first single family rental. I still had not found BiggerPockets at this point in time. I did a lot of things wrong on this property, which is I wanted to purchase it for cashflow, but I put down an $80,000 down payment and I think the property cashflow $400 with me managing the property. So the first month, the toilet breaks, I’m in the hole the first month and I’m like, Ooh, okay, baby steps. I’ve proven to myself that this model will work, that the tenants will pay the bills, but I don’t have cashflow. And so that was the first property quickly switch to out-of-state real estate investing focused on cashflow.

Scott:
Can I ask a question about that? Because if you cash flowing, if you put $80,000 down, you cashflow $400 a month, that’s a 6% cash on cash return. So it’ss not necessarily as awesome as what we’re hoping to get out of real estate investing in there, but it’s also not nothing. Are you saying that that was phantom number because you had not accounted for things like the toilet or those types of things and that was actually overstating your cashflow?

Whitney:
Yeah, well I know a lot of people self-manage their properties. And so if I were willing to just really give my time to the property, I think that, yeah, 6% is fine. But at some point in time I wanted to have the size of a estate portfolio that I could actually hire out property management, which means I did not leave myself enough margin to do that. And also I hadn’t set aside proper maintenance in CapEx allowance for the property. That became very evident very quickly.

Scott:
$400 a month divided by times 12 is 4,800 divided by 80 is 6%. But we were not actually getting a 6% cashflow is what we’re saying.

Whitney:
I think I figured it was closer to 1.5 if I figured in property management and then I was upside down if I were sitting aside the proper allowance for CapEx and maintenance. And I see a lot of investors actually do that when they go into their first properties, they are like, oh, I’ll manage it myself. And oh by the way, they’re not setting aside two or $300 a month for CapEx and maintenance guys. Water heaters break. It can break in the first month of ownership. It could break in the 48th month of ownership. It’s just a matter of when

Mindy:
The water heater thing. Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It will break. It breaks in the middle of the night. You’re welcome. So when it’ll break, I dunno which night, but it will absolutely break in the middle of the night. And the thing is, I like to say this about real estate, something will break as soon as you buy the house. The cost of that repair is inversely proportionate to how much money you have in the bank in reserves.

Scott:
You guys have completely set me up for this transition here. You found yourself in hot water with this property, Whitney, what happens next with your portfolio and how you build things out?

Whitney:
I find a website called BiggerPockets and I actually learn how to calculate properly the due diligence of the deal. How can I truly underwrite the deal? How can I calculate the cashflow? How can I actually start understanding how can I build financial independence through real estate? And then it clicked for me and I’m like, for me in my goals, I want to be independent in my W2 jobs, so I need cashflow. For some people, their goal is to build equity. That wasn’t my goal. My goal was cashflow. And so I quickly start building out of state. I went to two markets, Indianapolis and Kansas City. And so the first year I secured 10 single family rentals. The year after that I got 15, and then the next year I got 15. But in there I started transitioning from single family rentals into small multifamily buildings and then eventually a 52 unit apartment building.

Scott:
Walk us through the transition point, the inflection point of I am aggressively building wealth with as much leverage and activity as I possibly can in transitioning to a portfolio that I can really believe will provide money for tomorrow.

Mindy:
And what year was this? I’m

Whitney:
Building very aggressively between 2016 in latter part of 2019. But when 2019 hits, I’m starting to see a lot of those adjustable rate mortgages that I saw or it was eerily similar for what I saw in 2016 when I was living, flipping and house hacking.

Mindy:
So you said you saw the market changing. How did you see this? What clues were you starting to notice?

Whitney:
Yeah, so at this point in time, I am in a general partnership at a private equity firm and we’re doing private syndication on multifamily buildings and none of the deals really worked unless there was a short two or three year construction debt piece with adjustable rate mortgages. And yes, the operators, us included, were putting interest rate caps on the property locking in IO for three or four years interest rates. But our underwriter was just like, red flag, what happens if the interest rate environment shifts at year three and you cannot exit? And I was like, wait a second. Okay, hold on, show me the math. And he showed me the math and I’m like, oh, we’ve got a storm coming guys. I don’t know what to tell you. There’s a storm and so many people I felt like were very unprepared. I’m telling everybody, okay, we’re going to focus on the core four, the four horsemen that are in our portfolio. We’re going to fortify our foundation, we’re going to get all of our line of credit taken out right now, we’re going to shifts part of our portfolio into cashflowing debt. And they were all like, no, Whitney, you’re nuts. I’ve got this equity deal here that I can go into. And I’m like, no, hold on. We need to balance things out.

Mindy:
Okay, what are these four horsemen you’re talking about?

Whitney:
Yeah, we’re not talking about the four horsemen from the viable, but really what are those big four wealth destroyers that can destroy anybody’s portfolio no matter how much you scaled, whether you have five figures in your portfolio or if you have eight, 10 figures in your portfolio. In the first one, I really go over six different wealth destroyers in the book money for tomorrow. But there’s four core ones that anybody can focus on and one is making sure that we’re using debt wisely, right? Most people assume that all debt’s bad, but debt itself isn’t the problem. It’s the bad debt. A lot of times we’re focused on the high interest rate consumer debt. This can bleed tens of thousands of dollars from somebody’s portfolio over the lifetime. So I know you guys talk a lot about, hey, have a cashflowing piece of real estate, making sure you have good quality debt on the property where cash flows greater than the expenses on the property.
Everything’s cool. That’s not the type of debt I’m thinking. I’m thinking about people who have tons of car loans or credit card loans, private loans. Let’s not start scaling extremely rapidly until we have a good payoff order of that debt. Simply take the loan balance your outstanding loan balance, divide it by the minimum monthly payment you need to make, not what you’re actually making If you’re overpaying, but the minimum monthly payment and you’re going to get an index and that index of that number is 50 or below that debt, you’re probably going to make a higher effective rate of return on your money if you pay off that debt as opposed to taking that capital and deploying it. I know people that have taken loans on credit cards all the time to buy real estate, but let’s get those things paid off as quickly as possible.
So that’s one, learning how to order off the payoff of our consumer debt. Number two is leveraging insurance appropriately. So it’s really tricky with insurance, you can either overpay the two big issues I see people is either they’re overpaying for the insurance or they’re underinsured, and so we want to make sure that we’re hitting the proper balance there. And so insurance is a big one. I mean, we’ve got two more horsemen really quickly. Taxes, that’s one of the reasons why we love investing in real estate. Or if you’re here listening, you’re probably curious about investing in real estate, but taxes can be a huge wealth leak. And so are you making sure that you’re working with a strategist that’s helping you leverage the depreciation on the portfolio, maybe helping you organize your investing to invest in tax advantage investments and pair it with taxed advantage vehicles, vehicles.
And they’re just more just being proactive about the tax plan. I see so many investors that try to master taxes themself because they don’t like hiring a professional. I’m all about asking the question, how can I, and when you ask that question, how can I solve this problem? It doesn’t always mean I have to require the skill. Sometimes it means I go find the person that can help me solve the situation. In this case, making sure that you’ve got a good tax strategist on your side. And then my favorite one, and Scott, I love to get your insight on this, especially in the fire movement, is the big horseman that I see draining people’s portfolios is investment fees, right? It can come from banking fees or loan origination fees, prepayment penalty fees, but I’m talking about retirement fees. And so for people who have a traditional 401k, they’re probably losing about 31% of their portfolio over a 21 year period to just fees alone.
The average person investing in a 401k is, I don’t know, I haven’t looked up that stat in a while, but I think 35, 40 years. So 31% is probably a huge underestimation of that. And for contacts, if you’re just maxing out your 401k at say $21,000 a year, you’re getting a modest 7% in the stock market, which I know we were just having a conversation before, probably not the case right now, but average returns over time and you don’t get a match from your employer, you’re probably still losing a solid six figures, a hundred thousand dollars or more just to fees in your portfolio. So be intentional about your investing and this is where I help people in the book Money for tomorrow to lay out this blueprint, lay out this plan so they can make some of these really, truly minor adjustments in their portfolio to help them save and keep money in it and grow the wealth for themselves and not somebody else.

Scott:
Whitney, it was so amazing to connect today. Thank you so much for your time. We don’t want to talk about any of the other concepts in the book because you can find that book Money for Tomorrow, how to Build and Protect Generational Wealth in the BiggerPockets Bookstore. So just go to biggerpockets.com/m fourt, the letter M, the number four T. Also, if you want to learn more about Whitney, you can listen to episode 8 89 of the BiggerPockets podcast.

Mindy:
That was a quick tease with Whitney Elkins Hutton. And now Scott, I am excited to dive in a little bit deeper into the concept of the four horsemen. These aspects of your portfolio are really important to look critically at to retain your wealth if you’re working towards financial independence or are already retired early and you’re afraid of losing everything.

Scott:
Thanks for sticking with us.

Mindy:
Let’s start with the first one, Scott interest. So she says that interest, I don’t think she’s really talking about the interest on your mortgage. I think she’s talking about your consumer debt interest. The high, because I didn’t pay off my credit cards interest the high because I don’t have good credit interest that you are paying and shouldn’t have to pay. It’s not that hard to have good credit. It’s not that hard to pay off your credit cards on time. If you can’t afford it, then don’t charge it. I mean, unless that’s your emergency fund, which it shouldn’t be, but if you need tires and you don’t have anything, you have to put them on the credit card. But I think that interest can sneakily suck out a lot of money from your wealth that you’re not even really paying attention to because I think it happens more for people who aren’t as educated about their money in general. What is your thought on the interest?

Scott:
No, I completely agree and I will go further, but this is BiggerPockets money. If you have consumer debt with high interest, you’re listening to the wrong podcast. We don’t do that here at BiggerPockets money. That’s an emergency. We pay it off. We don’t even think about it. So when I think about, I don’t have any consumer debt out there, but besides the balance, I pay off in full each month on my credit card so I can amass those points. I never spend that we talked about with the points guy a few weeks ago on there, but so when I think about interest, it’s interest that’s backing assets or that’s extremely low rate against maybe a car loan, for example. Sometimes you can get those at 2%, although I don’t have any on my cars right now, but when we talk about that, I think minimizing interest expense comes down to that interest.
For me, if I’m going to use interest to finance the acquisition of long an asset I intend to hold for a long period of time, it must be fixed rate and it must be very low interest below, ideally five 6% in those areas I may go a little higher, but I’m starting to get wary of it. If I’ve got seven or 8% interest rate debt, I’m paying it off. I just don’t think that I’m good enough of an investor to beat a guaranteed 7, 8, 9, 10% interest rate return over a long period of time and I just take it. That’s a win. If someone offers me eight, nine, 10% after tax, that’s what most types of this interest are in most situations outside of business expenses, I just take it. So if it’s between five and 8%, then we’ve got a little bit of a gray area, but at this point in my life, I’d lean toward paying it off. If I was in aggressive accumulation mode, I would be potentially fine with it and below 5%, I don’t pay off my rental mortgages, for example, at below 5% interest rate. So that’s how I think about minimizing the impact of interest while also using it sparingly as a tool, especially now later in my fire journey. How about you?

Mindy:
I don’t have any consumer debt. I don’t pay any interest except my current mortgage, which is in the high 2%. I don’t pay a single cent more on my mortgage payment.

Scott:
Love it. Yep. I don’t either, but if it crossed that threshold, I would go all in on it, but if it doesn’t cross the threshold, I pay the minimum same as you.

Mindy:
So I do own two houses. One I own free and clear and one I have a mortgage on. The reason that I own it free and clear is because I bought it with, well, actually no, we did pay it off, so I bought it with a line of credit against my stock portfolio when interest rates were a horrific 5% after being two and 3% forever. And I didn’t think that interest rates would stay so high so long,
So we just paid cash for it, cash and air quotes because it was going to, I pulled it out of my line of credit and then we have been paying that down. We just paid it off completely and that leads me into our next Horseman insurance. So I have these two properties. They’re actually located in the same neighborhood just around the corner from each other. The house that I’m sitting in is my primary residence. I have a mortgage on this property and I tried to raise my deductible on my homeowner’s insurance to the highest that the insurance company offered was $10,000. And I think they do this to kind of protect their customers. How many people outside of the fire communities, a bunch of frugal weirdos, how many people can come up with $10,000 to pay for the repair on the house? Let’s say you need a new roof, it’s $20,000. Well, you’re going to put 50% of that bill. So $10,000 was the highest I could go. I locked it in. I was saving significant money on my premiums every month or every year, and then I get a letter from my mortgage company that said, oh, you can’t do this. You can only have a $5,000 deductible. And I’m like, but I’m really good with money. Please let me have this $10,000 deductible. And they said, absolutely not. If you don’t drop it down, we will get you a different insurance policy and bill you the difference.

Scott:
What was the premium difference,

Mindy:
Scott? It’s been a couple of years and I don’t remember, but it was a couple of hundred dollars.

Scott:
It

Mindy:
Might’ve been $500 a year.

Scott:
So I mean, that’s one of the benefits of owning property free and clear, and this is there’s no mortgage person that’s requiring you to do this stuff. My philosophy on insurance is I want a good carrier who will pay out the claim with full coverage, and I’m never going to call ’em unless it’s a disaster that threatens into the tunes of high single, high five figures or at least six figures. If not seven figures is where I’m going to be calling for that. I’m going to keep a cash position that will cover a solid deductible into the tens of thousands of dollars. My deductible is actually north of $30,000 on my primary, and I have a similar situation for a paid off rental that I recently, recently purchased, and that is a wonderful, wonderful situation. It increases cashflow on those. And I don’t know about you, but I’ve been doing this for 10 years as a rental property investor.
I’ve never filed a claim. I’ve had to replace roofs in those types of things, but it’s not for my situation with the roof replacement. It was not an insurance thing. The roof needed a replacement. It was part of the deal of buying that property. It’s why I got a good deal on that property in part because there was some deferred maintenance. So I have paid those types of expenses out of my portfolio reserves and the cashflow produced by it, and that’s my plan going forward. Maybe I’ll never file a claim or maybe I’ll file two across a lifetime hopefully in there, but when that day comes, I want that to happen. So I completely agree. Interest, I minimize by making sure I only have long-term fixed rate, low interest rate debt in my portfolio. I may take on additional interest, but then I would prioritize paying it down if I were to do that on a specific deal because I’ll take my eight plus percent return, enjoy it, and then insurance. It’s about making sure I have quality coverage from a real provider who will pay it out, but sending a clear message that I’m never going to call ’em unless it’s I really need the insurance to kick in a significant way. And I think that that’s a very massive advantage that those in the fire community will rapidly have access to it because you should be accumulating a lot of wealth very quickly in here and having access to liquidity that would allow you to self-insure smaller claims to a large degree smaller being less than 25,000, $50,000.

Mindy:
My deductible on my paid off house is 10% of the value of the home, which you can do when you don’t have a mortgage.

Scott:
And when you do this, the insurance brokers will think you’re crazy. They don’t do this very frequently and it’s a new concept. You have to educate them on that. When I am shopping for insurance, I have to educate the broker and say, here’s what I’m trying to do. I literally want this to be there. And they’re like, well, the highest we can go is 1% or 3% or 5% of your home value or whatever. I’m on there. So it’s a very unusual way of shopping for insurance, but it’ll save you huge if you’re willing, if you know that when you do file a claim, you’ll have a large deductible as part of it, and over time that math I think will work out in your favor. Now, one thing I do not maximize this to the point of insanity. So in some cases you add on 50 bucks and now you can cover your car for collision or whatever around there for a year. I’m going to do that, those kinds of things and take reasonable ones there. So it’s not a pure, how do I take this to the ultimate extreme? There’s a little bit of common sense. You have to apply for these quotes on a line item basis as well when you’re shopping for insurance,

Mindy:
But I mean sit down and take the time to, what I like to do is email. I don’t like to talk on the phone with insurance brokers. I want to get them on email. I want to ask them the exact same thing, copy paste it into a bunch of different companies and compare quotes, written quotes right next to each other. I think that’s easier for me personally than to try and take notes as they’re talking and trying to explain stuff to me. But if you’ve got more than one house and one vehicle, you should be looking at changing your insurance company if you’ve been with them for more than one year. I’ve got actually, if you have insurance, you should be looking to get quotes every single year, the end. I’m not going to caveat that with how many you have. I recently went from a homeowner’s company that I thought I was paying a decent rate for and they had my car insurance as well to a new company because a friend recommended them telling me how much great coverage she got. I went from kind of bad coverage on my house and really bad coverage on my cars to significantly better coverage on the cars and brought my house value up to replacement value instead of what I purchased it at, and I purchased it at a huge discount and added an umbrella policy all for less than what I was paying at the other company for worse coverage.

Scott:
Yeah, it’s remarkable. I think you got to shop this around with four or five different carriers once every two to three years, because otherwise, if you just keep renewing, it’s amazing how in my experience at least, they’re just like, whoa, I got a quote now. The insurance carrier on my house that I bought a year ago increased my premium 90% and I’m now shopping around, I’m getting quotes that have better coverage for one third of the annual cost of the premium on my current provider. It’s ridiculous on there. And so I think you have to be willing to shop this stuff every couple of years I think as part of it, and it’s a real pain and I got nothing for you. You’re got to spend an hour at least on the phone with four or five different carriers to shop this across Home Auto and Home Auto and umbrella. If you choose to get an umbrella, which I think a lot of people should in there, and I think it is just a time you got to spend because it’s several thousand dollars a year and it’s a very high hourly wage, you’re paying yourself to make sure to keep those costs low after tax.

Mindy:
Okay, let’s talk about fees.

Scott:
When I think about minimizing fees, right, there’s two major investments that I participate in, the stock market and real estate. So the stock market, I think by this point, BiggerPockets money listeners and those pursuing fire know well and good not to use a money manager that charges an A UM fee of 1% of assets under management. And though the math and how crazy those fees stack up to over a lifetime in terms of helping your financial advisor become financially independent instead of you has been well documented. I’m sure we’ll talk about that in a minute. The other part though that I want to talk, so you just buy ETFs or directly invest through mutual funds through Vanguard or Fidelity and Stock Mart, low fee index funds. That’s how you avoid all those fees essentially over a long period of time and aggregate a lot more wealth for yourself in real estate though, fees can really begin to add up as well.
And so as a real estate investor, I encourage folks not on their first deal necessarily, but if you’re going to do 3, 4, 5, 10 real estate deals across your lifetime and begin massing a rental portfolio, get your license, go get your license, and after the second or third deal, you can really begin representing yourself to a large degree. So this is what I do here and when I need advice, I don’t transact like Mindy’s a real agent. You help people buy and sell real estate all the time, but when I need to transact on properties, I then pay Mindy an hourly fee that she’s happy with. I still owe you, actually, I free a check for the recent property here that you helped me with, but I pay you a fee and it’s a good fee, right? It’s a good hourly rate I think for you.

Mindy:
Yeah, it’s great

Scott:
On there and a lot of agents would be willing to accept that. And then I save the two and a half percent fee that I would otherwise need to pay a buyer’s agent over a long period of time. So again, I would never do that in my first deal or even my second deal, but by this point, this is my sixth property I’ve purchased, right? I kind of know what I’m doing on this front, and I feel like the 150 hours of education I did to get my real estate license plus the continuing education and the three ish thousand dollars per year to get license has totally been overwhelmed by the hundred plus thousand dollars in fees that I have saved to buyers agents over the last several transactions. So I completely agree with the philosophy of minimizing fees, and that’s my approach. I get my license and maintain it as a real estate investor in order to avoid those over a long period of time.

Mindy:
I will say that there is more to having a real estate license than just taking your continuing ed every year. It is a big commitment upfront, and you need to have some level of real estate knowledge. I had been flipping houses for, I dunno, 15 years when I got my real estate license and then took the real estate exam or took the real estate coursework and was shocked at how frankly unvaluable it is to have that information in your head. And I don’t even have that information in my head anymore. Let’s be honest. The coursework teaches you absolutely nothing about buying and selling real estate, but Scott is a real estate investor. He’s the president and CEO of BiggerPockets. He knows real estate, so he uses my help for the contracts part of it. You definitely need somebody’s guidance if you’re not going to be doing this as a full-time job. But even giving up a little bit of the commission as hiring somebody to guide you through the transaction is a great way to save on fees. But I would caution that this is for somebody who is buying and selling a lot of real estate.

Scott:
You’ve got to buy a property every year or every year or three in order to justify this, right? If you’re not going to do that, then don’t get your license on it. But I think if it’s part of your major, part of your portfolio over a long period of time, that absolutely keeping fees down makes a huge difference over a long period of time.

Mindy:
Fees Scott, are not just for real estate, they’re for the stock market too. I would like to read something that Ramit wrote, Ramit I will teach you to be rich. He says, think a 1% fee isn’t much. Here’s the surprising math behind paying 1% to a financial advisor. Let’s say you’re 30 years old and you invest $50,000 and contribute another thousand dollars a month. The first thing you want to do when picking your funds is to minimize fees. Look for the management fees or expense ratios to be low around 0.2% and you’ll be fine. Most of the index funds at Vanguard t Rowe Price and Fidelity offer excellent value in 35 years with a low 0.2% management fee. And assuming a 7% return, which is a reasonable assumption, you’d have just over $2 million. But if you pay a financial advisor 1%, you would only have $1.7 million that he says that’s more than $380,000 going into your advisor’s pockets in fees.

Scott:
That’s right, 1% because you’re multiplying 1% of the portfolio value every year, so it will make you almost 30% poorer to pay a 1% fee every year for 30 years. It’s a remarkable impact on your long-term wealth. This 1% a UM fee,

Mindy:
I’m just questioning his math because you had 2 million and now you have 1.7. So that’s only 30,000, not three point.

Scott:
That’s 300,000.

Mindy:
300,000, not 380,000. But either way, that’s $300,000 going into your advisor’s pockets. By the way, if you pay 2%, that’s over $750,000 in fees. This is what I mean when I say that a 1% fee can cost you 28% of your lifetime returns.

Scott:
By the way, even his example of the low fee 0.2% is a very high fee for some of these passively managed funds. Vanguard’s total market index fund has an expense ratio of 0.03%. That’s a major difference. It’s almost 10 times less expensive from a fee perspective than the 0.2%, right? 0.2% versus 0.03% for an ETF, like VTI or it’s equivalent V-T-S-A-X or VOO, the s and p 500 version of that. So there are funds out there that have very low ones. Fidelity has similarly low expense ratios. They’re like one basis point 100th of a percent higher in some cases than Vanguard, but there’s some extraordinarily low fee index funds, and that’s the easiest way to avoid these fees.

Mindy:
So yeah, when you think, oh, it’s only 1%, it’s not only anything.

Scott:
Yep.

Mindy:
Now let’s talk taxes. Scott, I loved what Whitney said about having a tax planner have a conversation with you. Look, if you have a W2 and that’s it, you have a W2 and a 401k and that’s it. You probably don’t need to have a conversation with a tax planner, but Scott, I hope you’re having conversations with a tax planner because you’ve got a real estate portfolio and you’ve got a stock market portfolio and you’ve got a lot of other investments. You’re invested in BiggerPockets, you’re invested in a lot of things. It would be very helpful to you, and I bet you would make up the money that you spent on the tax planning session way more so with the savings that they provide to you just because you don’t know everything. I, as much as it pains me to admit, don’t know everything. So having somebody who does have so much expertise in one subject tax and the tax code is like 4 billion pages long or something like that, it’s huge. It’s enormous. It’s meant to be confusing having somebody who has sifted through that and gone through and said, oh, this is how you use this. This is how you use this. I mean, I have had people, Scott, talk to me about they need a new advisor. I’m sorry, they need a new accountant because their last accountant didn’t have them taking depreciation on their rentals for the last five years, which makes my heart break because their accountant didn’t know anything about it.

Scott:
Yeah, absolutely. I want to just kind of, this is the one where I think I would actually diverge with Whitney and many other investors from a philosophical perspective while completely agreeing that this needs the advice of a tax planner from a long-term perspective. So one of the things that I think traps people’s thinking, and this is fire specific, is this, I want to absolutely minimize my tax bill in the near term, and my goal is not to have a hundred million dollars in wealth at 90. My goal is to build a portfolio that allows me to enjoy Tuesday in my thirties and forties. And a consequence of that philosophical difference, I believe is not fearing paying taxes today, right? If I’ve been investing for a long period of time in the index funds, for example, and I want to start harvesting some of that wealth beyond just the principle I committed into those funds, at some point I’ve got to be willing to pay taxes.
I’ve got to be willing to realize that gain so that I can spend it on a trip, on a house, on whatever that I want to do there. And so I’m not afraid to realize that gain. I’m also not afraid to realize that gain when I can’t sleep at night. So I paid taxes when I sold my index fund portfolio out of fear for high prices in the stock market in February of this year, and those taxes will get paid to Uncle Sam. I’ll do my part to reduce the National Treasury here, and I sleep better at night. So I’m just not afraid to do that from one perspective. Second, I have a long-term bet in place that you can disagree with, but I think that taxes are going up. So while it is true, so if I have a hundred thousand dollars invested in the market and I pay a hundred thousand gain and I pay taxes on it and then reinvest it right away in Colorado, that marginal tax rate could be as high as 25%, 24.55%, 20% federal for capital gains and then four point a half percent for Colorado.
But if I realized that gain and then put it right back into the market, then I will be less wealthy in 30 years after tax, even after I sell it because the way that the math works, you can go play with that concept if I’m losing people on that. But I believe that tax brackets are going to go up over the next 30, 40 years from where they are at today. So I believe that when, and nobody knows what that’s going to look like. So I believe between the combination of me realizing a gain when I feel like it’s the best move for my portfolio, paying taxes, potentially getting a better risk adjusted return with whatever I then reinvest the proceeds into and combining that with the second fact that I believe tax rates will go up long-term. And third, the fact that I want to use that wealth to enable me to spend Tuesday how I want in my thirties and forties, I’m not afraid to pay taxes.
That said, I always understand the impact of the moves that I’m going to make from a tax perspective. I’m going to stay in an asset class. I want to 10 31 exchange something, right? I want to think through those types of decisions here. I also want to point out another thing here that why you need a tax planner on this. I was recently talking to somebody who wants to sell, I think $200,000 worth of stocks in order to fund a home improvement project. That’s their choice. So I see you don’t like that as a philosophical item, but that’s what they want to do. Let’s think about the tax implications there. I want it to all be long-term capital gains. Well, if you invested a hundred thousand dollars in November, 2024 in the stock market, and that has grown to $101,000 right now, and that’s part of the piece that you sell here, that $1,000 gain will be taxed as a short-term gain at your marginal income tax bracket right?
Now, if you sell a hundred thousand dollars of stock that you bought with a basis of $50,000 several years ago, you’re going to have a $50,000 gain that you’re going to pay taxes on with a long-term capital gains rate at 15 to 20% depending on your income tax bracket. You see where I’m going with this. Wouldn’t you rather realize the short-term gain of $1,000 and pay four or $500 in taxes to access some of that wealth today than to pay the long-term capital gains by selling the chunk that you invested in five, 10 years ago? That’s the kind of thing that people miss and don’t think about when they’re thinking about the tax planning perspective here is there’s the amount of the gain and there’s the type of realized income on there. And so that’s something that you got to really be careful of when you’re thinking about this. It’s not as simple as, oh, I’m going to realize the long term capital gain and stuff. The short term one,

Mindy:
And the thinking behind both of those sides that you just shared is absolutely solid. Oh, I want to do long-term capital gains because that’s a lower tax bracket than my current tax bracket of 30% or whatever. But it’s not necessarily the right move like you just highlighted. So yes, that is a great point and that is absolutely what tax planning can help you figure out.

Scott:
Yeah, and I sold some of my stocks recently. I put that into place and I will have short-term capital gains that’ll be taxed at a marginal income tax income tax bracket here, and they’ll have some long-term ones, but I made the move. It was a very complicated exercise, frankly, into some of these to think about it, simple toggle inside of the Schwab trading account there, but it was a complicated exercise to figure out how do you minimize that tax hit in year on this? And there’s also that philosophy. Do I want to pay? Am I just cool paying a portion of taxes year to have a lower basis on the next of investments that I am going to invest here? Those are all things you got to think about here, and it’s the place where I diverge from Whitney philosophically, but also agree completely with the sentiment. You got to really understand what you’re doing here and minimize taxes with respect to the goal that you have. When do you want to use that money?

Mindy:
This was super fun. I like these four horsemen and I encourage our listeners to check out the book Money for Tomorrow, how to Build and Protect Generational Wealth. This is a BiggerPockets Publishing book. You can buy it on our website at biggerpockets.com/store or wherever books are sold. Alright, Scott, should we get out of here?

Scott:
Let’s do it.

Mindy:
That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. I am Mindy Jensen. He is the Scot Trench saying Tutu Lu Mountain Dew.

 

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The beauty of real estate investing is that different strategies can work for other people. 

Do you love a challenge and bringing something from ugly to beautiful? Fix and flip may be for you. Do you prefer the hospitality side and being extra creative? Short-term rentals could be a good option. What about fewer headaches, high appreciation areas, and lower expenses? Turnkey new construction is your best fit. 

Real estate investing can be one of the most effective ways to build long-term wealth, but it comes with its fair share of challenges. From property acquisition to renovations and ongoing management, many investors are overwhelmed with the responsibilities of running an investment property.

This is where turnkey new construction from our partners at Rent To Retirement offers a compelling solution, especially for those looking for a hands-off approach to real estate. Whether you’re a first-time investor or a seasoned pro looking to scale, turnkey new construction may be the best strategy to help you meet your investment goals.

First-Time Investors Looking to Avoid Costly Mistakes

New investors often face a steep learning curve, dealing with everything from property renovations to tenant placement. Turnkey new construction eliminates many risks associated with inexperience by providing fully built, move-in-ready homes in proven rental markets. Investing in a property that is already optimized for long-term success allows first-time investors to bypass the headaches of renovations, unreliable contractors, and high maintenance costs that often come with older homes.

With Rent to Retirement (RTR), investors gain access to expert-vetted new construction properties in prime markets, ensuring they start with a high-quality investment from day one.

Busy Professionals and Passive Investors

Many investors have the financial ability to invest but lack the time or expertise to manage a property themselves. Turnkey new construction allows for truly passive investing, where professionals handle property management, leasing, and maintenance.

RTR’s turnkey model provides an ideal solution for professionals balancing careers and family life by eliminating the need for hands-on involvement. Investors can receive cash flow from a high-performing rental property without worrying about day-to-day management.

Out-of-State Investors Seeking the Best Markets

Local markets don’t always offer the best investment opportunities. Many investors live where home prices are too high, rent-to-price ratios are unfavorable, or regulatory restrictions make short-term and long-term rentals difficult.

Turnkey new construction allows out-of-state investors to own properties in high-growth, landlord-friendly markets without needing to live nearby. RTR specializes in identifying and developing properties in markets with strong appreciation potential, low property taxes, and stable rental demand.

Investors Looking to Scale and Diversify Faster

Growing a real estate portfolio can take years if each property requires significant rehab, repositioning, or active management. Turnkey new construction accelerates the process by allowing investors to acquire multiple properties quickly, with minimal hands-on effort.

With RTR’s streamlined approach, investors can purchase multiple new construction homes in different markets simultaneously, spreading risk and optimizing cash flow while maintaining a passive investment strategy.

Investors Seeking Unique Financing and Buying Incentives

One of the most attractive benefits of turnkey new construction is the availability of unique financing options and incentives that may not be accessible in other real estate strategies. RTR makes investing more accessible by offering:

  • Properties significantly below market value
  • Cash back at closing
  • 5% down conventional loan options
  • Rate buydowns as low as 3.99%

These incentives allow investors to secure deals with lower upfront capital, higher leverage, and better long-term returns, making new construction one of the most attractive paths for strategic investors.

Investors Who Want Predictability and Low Maintenance Costs

Older properties often have unexpected maintenance issues, ranging from outdated plumbing to roof repairs. These expenses can quickly erode cash flow and cause headaches for investors. It only takes one major mechanical system to go out and completely wipe out any profits you may have generated. Older properties are rarely renovated to the standards of new construction.

Turnkey new construction provides peace of mind by offering brand-new homes with builder warranties, modern energy-efficient designs, and lower maintenance costs. Investors can enjoy consistent, predictable cash flow and a more stable investment experience with fewer unexpected repairs and warranties on major functions of the property.

Strategic Investors Looking for Long-Term Appreciation

While cash flow is a critical factor in any real estate investment, long-term appreciation is another key component of wealth building. Turnkey new construction properties in emerging markets often benefit from steady price appreciation, making them attractive to investors with a long-term vision.

RTR strategically selects locations where job growth, population trends, and economic expansion support rising property values over time. Investors benefit from both cash flow and equity gains by investing in new construction properties in these high-growth areas.

Why Turnkey New Construction Is the Smart Choice for 2025

As real estate markets shift, investors must adapt to find the best opportunities for long-term success. Turnkey new construction offers passive income, strong appreciation potential, reduced maintenance costs, and attractive financing options that traditional investment strategies can’t always provide.

RTR’s turnkey investment model eliminates many pain points that investors face, allowing them to acquire fully built, high-quality properties in top rental markets without the stress of managing renovations or tenant placements.

Turnkey new construction is one of the most intelligent investment strategies heading into 2025 for those looking to maximize their returns with minimal effort. If you’re ready to take advantage of this opportunity, Rent to Retirement is here to help you build wealth through strategic, high-performing real estate investments.



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15% ROI, 5% down loans!”,”body”:”3.99% rate, 5% down! Access the BEST deals in the US at below market prices! 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Recently, a fascinating discussion unfolded on the BiggerPockets forum. It concerns capital gains taxes and how homeowners who stay in their quickly appreciating homes are hit hard when it comes time to sell—even factoring in the capital gains tax relief the IRS offers for single and married couples selling their primary residences that have appreciated by $250,000 and $500,000, respectively.

In short, as the forum poster, Brian J. Allen, astutely concluded, a homeowner who moves every few years to a more expensive home as their home appreciates would be left with a much smaller capital gains tax hit when they eventually decide to downsize than an owner who stayed in their home. He also made a fair point: Increasing the limits of capital gains tax relief was long overdue, as the current ones were set in 1997, and the limits have not kept pace with inflation.

8% of Homes Sold in 2023 Exceeded the Capital Gains Limit

According to CoreLogic, a property analytics company, as prices have risen sharply around the country, the amount of capital games taxes homeowners have had to pay when they sell has been a growing issue. Almost 8% of homes sold in 2023 exceeded the capital gains limit of $500,000 in appreciation. 

For some perspective, according to CoreLogic:

“Between 2000 and 2003, a few years after the passage of The Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, only about 38,000 home sales per year, or 1.3% of existing home sales, had gross capital gains that exceeded the exemption limit.” 

However, this has changed dramatically since then:

“In the peak year of 2022, more than 300,000 home sales had gross capital gains above the $500,000 exemption limit, a staggering 140% increase from pre-pandemic levels….At the end of 2023, home sales that required capital gains payments stood at 7.9%,150% higher than the 2017-2019 average.”

Homeowners in rapidly appreciating areas like New York, New Jersey, Florida, Colorado, Massachusetts, and California have been the hardest hit. These states combined saw a total of 68% of national sales that had gross capital gains above the exemption limit between 2017 and 2024.

A Holistic Approach

Homeowners selling homes with a lot of equity are in a difficult situation. Solutions to capital gains exposure require looking at the problem holistically by determining each owner’s comfort level and long-term intentions. No one enjoys paying taxes if they don’t have to. There are workarounds, but none are as simple as just selling your home and being done with it. 

Here are some solutions if you are open to the idea of using investing as a strategy to offset/defer taxes.

Move out, rent your primary residence, and 1031 exchange it

Moving out of your primary residence, turning it into a rental, and then doing a 1031 exchange on the property when you sell it would defer your capital gains taxes to your next investment. The good news is that if you hate the idea of dealing with tenants and being a landlord, your next investment can be more passive—you become an LP in a syndication, where you do not deal with the management side of things. Other vehicles include industrial buildings, storage units, or any real property being used for business or investment purposes.

To pay for your new, downsized primary residence, you could either get a HELOC, which the cash flow from the new investment would pay for, or take some money out of the 1031 exchange when you sell, pay taxes on it, and buy your new primary residence for cash. 

Hold the note

Being the bank is a great way to minimize your tax exposure because you do not receive a lump sum of cash from the sale of your property if you hold the note and allow a homeowner to make payments over time. The fractional portion of the gain will result in lower taxes than that on a lump-sum return of gain. How long the property owner holds the property will determine how it’s taxed: as long-term or short-term capital gains.

Put your primary residence into an irrevocable trust and pass it to your heirs

If you intend to pass on assets to your heirs after you die, your kids will do much better financially if your assets were placed in an irrevocable trust, of which they were the beneficiaries, than if you simply sold the asset, paid taxes, and passed on the proceeds.

According to Investopedia.com:

“If you inherit a home, the cost basis is the fair market value (FMV) of the property when the original owner died. For example, say you are bequeathed a house for which the original owner paid $50,000. The home was valued at $400,000 at the time of the original owner’s death. Six months later, you sell the home for $500,000. The taxable gain is $100,000 ($500,000 sales price – $400,000 cost basis).”

Things get more interesting when trusts are introduced, specifically irrevocable trusts. Here’s how they work, according to SmartAsset.com:

“Assets in an irrevocable trust do not contribute to the overall value of your estate, which, for a particularly large estate, can shield those assets from potential estate taxes. But that doesn’t mean the assets in an irrevocable trust are shielded from taxes altogether. Instead, the assets in an irrevocable trust are taxed at different rates depending on their status. In most cases, this means either the trust itself pays income tax on undistributed gains, or a trust’s beneficiary pays income taxes on money they receive from that trust.”

There are many different types of trusts, and a discussion with an asset manager can help you decide which kind of trust is right for you. The downside of a trust is that you—the homeowner—no longer control the property; the trust does. But if you’re sure you want your heirs to get as much of your assets as possible, they can be a great vehicle for minimizing tax exposure. 

Final Thoughts

The quality of life aspect is often overlooked in real estate investing discussions. For older homeowners, ensuring that they are minimizing stress for their remaining years often supersedes maximizing the amount of money they can make in the future—because at a certain age, your future is not guaranteed.

Investing in real estate, dealing with tenants, and incurring debt do not always increase the quality of your life as you age. In fact, it could minimize it. If you are financially comfortable, the advantages of paying Uncle Sam his due so you can get on and live an unencumbered life, travel, and enjoy quality time with your family cannot be overlooked, even if, on paper, it does not make the most financial sense.

Alternatively, discussing ways to transfer your real estate assets into completely passive forms of investment while minimizing your tax exposure is something to chew over with an asset allocation professional.

I’ve tried to interest my kids in real estate investing (I have two college-age daughters). I’ve driven them past my rentals and told them, “It’s time to get acquainted with the family business!” doing my best Marlon Brando/Don Corleone impression. They’ve momentarily looked up from their phones, registered complete disinterest, and gone back to scrolling. 

I hope they can come around so that when the time comes that I no longer want to be bothered with the stress of being a landlord, they can take the reins. It’s a nice thought, but I’m not counting on it.



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Think you can’t create cash flow in this housing market? Think again! Today’s guest will introduce you to a strategy that can take a regular rental property and maximize its profits. It’s allowed him to net $5,000 each month and quit his W2 job in just 18 months!

Welcome back to the Real Estate Rookie podcast! Just two years ago, Andres Martinez was waiting tables and saving every penny possible for a house. But when he was told he still couldn’t qualify for a mortgage, he turned his attention to wholesaling in order to learn more about real estate investing and make some extra money. Little did he know that he would soon stumble upon a strategy that would change his life and give him financial freedomco-living!

After buying a couple of properties, Andres quit his job to go all-in on this strategy. This move paid off, as he’s been able to scale his real estate portfolio to five properties (soon to be six!) and over $5,000 in monthly cash flow. The best part? He’s been able to buy all of his properties using other people’s money (OPM), seller financing, and subject to deals. Stick around as Andres tells you all about his buy box, how he analyzes rental properties, and why co-living might just be the next big thing in 2025!

Ashley:
Hey, rookies on the show, we always talk about having a bias toward action.

Tony:
Our guest today never gave up on making real estate work for him. He partnered with other real estate investors and used co-living as his real estate investing strategy to be able to quit his W2 this year.

Ashley:
This is the Real Estate Rookie podcast. And I’m Ashley Care.

Tony:
And I’m Tony j Robinson. And welcome to the show. Andres. What’s up brother? How you doing, man? Good. How you doing guys? Thank you so much for hiring me.

Ashley:
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Andres, can you share a little bit of your background before we actually get into real estate? What were some of the critical steps you took in your current state before you started your real estate journey?

Andres:
Well, it start from the beginning. Like they said, I came to this country when I was 18 years old, worked my way through every possible job that you can work as an immigrant. I started washing dishes, basketball, kitchen, eventually became a waiter, assistant manager. I did ballet parking, cutting yards, some construction work, put myself through college. After college, I got married and my wife was like, Hey, we need to buy a house. My, and at that time I was working full-time as a waiter, so I couldn’t qualify for a loan. Despite making good enough money, we were expecting to qualify for a house. We just couldn’t. And it’s upsetting because you’re making almost six figures, and just because you get paid in cash, they don’t want to take it. So I made a quick Google search, how to buy houses without any banks any credit. And as you guys know, that’s like Pace’s slogan. So I found pace. I started watching Pace’s videos, I found BiggerPockets, and a week later I was like, I’m going to find myself a deal. So I joined Pace’s Mentorship, and a couple weeks later I found my first house up two. That was the beginning of my real estate journey for a year. I did wholesaling with dad to build cash.
One of the last deals that I wholesale was to this guy who I didn’t know what he was doing with the house because the house didn’t really have an exited strategy. And when you wholesale creative deals, you got to make sure that your buyer is, they’re not going to default on the loan. So I went with him to the property. We walk it, his GC is there and he’s like, I’m going to put a wall here. I’m going to put a wall here. We need another bathroom here. And I was like, man, what are you doing? He’s like, oh, I do room rentals. I was like, that doesn’t exist. That’s false. And I went with a different buyer who was going to do an Airbnb in there, but that pique my curiosity because he sent me his spreadsheet like, Hey, we’re going to make like 3000 net in this house, but I just couldn’t believe it because who’s going to share a room?
Who’s going to share a bathroom? And then after that, I started researching room rentals because at this point, this is now December, 2023, a year after starting wholesaling, I’m like, I need to buy my first house. I build this capital. I want to be an investor. So I started researching. I was like, okay, this sounds like a good strategy because that year when I started real estate, when I was doing wholesaling, I really dove into short term rentals and midterm rentals because I thought that’s what I wanted to do. It is so hard. I am not a smart person. I don’t know how you guys do short term rentals, midterm rentals. I don’t understand how to run the numbers. I have joined a lot of coaching programs that I’ve paid for. I’ve seen every YouTube video possible. I still don’t get it.

Ashley:
Hey, we never let anybody on the show say they are not smart because you have been smart in some aspect to be able to meet it this far in your real estate investing journey. So

Tony:
Andre, there’s a couple of things in your story too. I want to get into it how you made the transition over to co-living, but there’s a couple of things I want to get into. First, you mentioned pace. So for our Rick, we’re referencing Pace. Morby and Pace actually wrote a book for BiggerPockets. It’s called Wealth Without Cash. If you guys head over to Bigger Pockets bookstore, you can pick up a copy of that and learn about the strategy that Andres was leveraging to help him get started in real estate investing. But it sounds like Andres, that you said you started Wholesaling first, which is a way to generate some cash. And then you decided, hey, let’s get into actually owning the real estate as an asset. And I just want to point out, for a lot of our rookies that are listening, you might find yourself in a similar position where you have the desire to go out there and start building your portfolio, but from a cash perspective, maybe you’re not ready. So even if you can’t necessarily put down 20% to go out and buy that first rental, are there other things you can do within the world of real estate investing to generate the cash, which would then eventually allow you to go out and buy something? So Andres, just really quickly before we get into the co-living, how long were you focused on that active income strategy before you had enough cash set a site to go out and actually get your first buy and hold rental?

Andres:
About 10 months, 10 to 11 months,

Tony:
10 months. That was a lot faster than what I was thinking, man.

Andres:
I wasn’t that successful, honestly, that year. I mean, at that point I was before that working full-time as an assistant manager slash waiter, so I was making pretty good money. But I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, no days off. If they called me, I have to be there. But with wholesaling, well, how I get into wholesaling, right? While doing the full-time job, I was flipping clothing online, like going to the thrift stores and selling it on eBay, Poshmark, I was flipping furniture, I was flipping appliances.

Ashley:
We love Side Hustle ideas on the show, and that is a great one.

Andres:
I always side hassle. When I was in the community college, my sister-in-law used to work for Beer World, which is the company that produces those things for hot topic, the kind of anime toys and backpacks. They would have a clearance every three months and sell everything for a dollar. So I would go buy a hundred things, put it in the trunk of my car and go to college park right outside the arts building and sell it to all the taco guys there that play music and do arts. So I would pay my tuition that way. I’ve always liked idea of side hustle. If we go back to when I was a kid reselling candy, deflating other people’s bicycles so I can sell them air. I’ve always had that mindset. I was four or five, don’t judge me,

Ashley:
Were you? I’ve seen this Instagram reel where a girl pranks her dad and she goes to her dad and says, yeah, I went to the mechanics and they actually, they have premium air there. It was only a hundred dollars and I got premium air in my tires just to get a reaction out of her dad of it is that you saw the premium air.

Andres:
I’ve always had these little side hustles in college. I run a poker room under a table until I got kicked out. But that mindset of always doing something on the side, I think that’s something my parents gave me because when you come from poverty, all you have is hustle, greed, and you cannot give up the hopes of my ancestors lay on my shoulders, I got to keep going no matter what. So now we jump into wholesaling. I wasn’t very successful. I only like six deals in one year, which is not a lot, but it gave me enough cash where I wanted to buy a house and I decided to go with co living because it sounded doable. I started putting some test ads to people. I was like, Hey, yeah, I need a room. I need a room, studio, apartments at that time in Fort Worth or going for 1200, 1300. So if I can get somebody in a room for 700 to 800, that sounds like a good model.

Tony:
Sorry, before we go on, I just want you to define what co-living is. We’ve had a couple of guests on the podcast who have kind of gone through this strategy, but for folks who are listening and they’ve maybe never heard the phrase co-living, what exactly is this and how does it differ from traditional long-term rental or traditional short-term rentals

Andres:
Because of various names? Cold living room rentals, a lot of people know it as pad split the same way we know short-term rentals as Airbnb because that’s the biggest platform that does it, but it’s pretty much renting a room inside a house and you’re sharing the kitchen. A lot of the times you’re sharing the bathrooms. Now, a lot of people right now, lot of the big coaches, they’re fighting into, oh, if there’s no community in it, it’s not a co living. It’s just like you’re renting a room. I would say that’s the landlord’s taste, depending on your tenants. A lot of people really try to do a lot of extracurricular activities for their tenants, pizza parties and trying to do this, trying to do that. I don’t do anything like that. I just let them be, and I’ve had only one turnover since I started in 10 months. So I think I’m doing something right. A lot of people don’t believe me. It’s like, that’s not possible. You have 42 tenants and only one has left. I was like, yeah, give them a good product.

Ashley:
We are going to take a quick ad break, but when we come back, we are going to hear more from undress on his portfolio and how he cash flows from his co-living strategy. Okay, now let’s get back into the show. So Andres, I have a question for you. As far as the co-living, I always think of co-living as college. That’s what everybody did in college was run by the room. That’s how you got places. And you mentioned a couple places where you can list the apartment such as pad split and several others, and those are the Airbnb platform for co-living. What do you think is the big reason that co-living is becoming more popular right now? People talked about Rent by the room throughout time I guess, but it seems like this year going into 2025, co-living is the hot new thing. Several years ago it was Airbnb and then after that it was midterm rentals. What do you think is the major shift that has made this a hot commodity right now for investors, but also for people who want to live in co-living

Andres:
Real estate? Cyclical, right? 28, 29, the borough was the biggest thing because you could get all your money out, you could get paid, you can get cashflow. 16, 17 Airbnb is a boom. Two years ago, everybody was like, oh, the interest rate is so low, let’s get it at that low and resell it on a wrap. Also, at the same time, Hey, let’s do traveling nurses, let’s do midterm rentals. And now everybody’s failing on that. Now it’s like, oh, co leaving because it’s secured cashflow. The thing is that co living is actually really good because just as a general economical principle, we’re targeting the people who make the least amount of money and we are taking care of the most principal need, which is shelter. So that’s always going to be there because what happens, studio apartments, which is efficiency, apartments, the cheapest thing that you can buy, those prices have gone so high that people can’t qualify for them. For example, this studio apartment in this area that is 1200, you need to make about 43, 40 $4,000 a year to live in. What happens with the people who are making 36, 35? What happens with the people that are making minimum wage? Where are they living?
So even middle school teachers, high school teachers, they don’t make that much money. I have one teacher and then one of my properties, and when she came, she was crying and I was explaining to her, look, this is not a group home. There’s an engineer here. He was from home, there’s a nurse there. Other guys work locally because she couldn’t believe it. She went to college. She has a master’s degree and she has to share a bathroom with a couple guys. So it is what it is.

Tony:
Andres, let me ask, because you mentioned something that you did a little bit of a test before you actually dove into this strategy, and I’m just curious, what was that test? How did you try and validate this idea before you actually committed to IT?

Andres:
Advertising. Because my biggest fear, it was like how long is it going to take to get full? Because at that time I was using other company’s numbers. They’re telling you like, Hey, it takes this long. They stay for that long. And then talking with investors actually in the platforms like, dude, we’re barely breaking even as soon as you launch, they get you full. But then after that, they start taking tenants because so many people are diving in and at that time there was no control, which is about a year ago. Landlords can do whatever they want. So I was like, let me just run my own ads, do my own marketing, see if I can get my own tenants. So I started researching how to do that. I found Sam Ard, who is probably the biggest investor in this market. He’s out of North Carolina or South Carolina, somewhere in there. And then he does a five day free course where you can learn how to do this yourself for free. So I copied that and I started marketing on Zillow, apartment.com, Facebook marketplace, Craiglist, all the room rental websites, roomies, Roomster, Soper. I only got leads from Facebook Marketplace, but I started getting 13, 14 messages a day.

Ashley:
Was it, is this still available?

Andres:
All of them were, this is still available. And a lot of investors told me, don’t do it because people just click on it and they’ll respond. And I was like, okay, do you respond to, is this still available? No, never. Well, let me do it. So I started replying, and guess what? People do respond. They don’t type room for rental just because they’re crazy. So I started having conversations with them and the property was barely under contract. I had just gotten another contract with the seller and I was already people like, I’m ready to move in. So I was like, okay, this works. And then something else happened where the person who was going to onboard me into the OR company, they said a few things that my lawyer didn’t agree with. And that’s something a lot of krus and investors don’t talk about, which is the legalities of it. And that’s something we have to be aware of it. Otherwise your investment is going to go belly up.

Tony:
Yeah, it’s super cool way to test this strategy before going into it fully. And I guess two follow up questions for me. Number one, what did you actually put into the post that you think garnered such strong attention? And then second, how did you actually land on the pricing for the room rental? Like you said, hey, for you it’s difficult, how to underwrite and analyze properties as a short term. I know how to do that really well because we’ve done it a lot, but the idea of the single room rental, I feel like there’s a little bit less clarity around how to do that. So first, what did you put into the post to generate so much attention? And then second, how did you decide how much to actually charge for your rooms?

Andres:
Yeah, so the way you under divide a room rental, you go from the comms in the area, you can use comms from zilo. Zilo is great realtor.com because it tells you what the apartments in the area are going for. So once you find that price in your area, let’s say it’s between 1,012 hundred, you want to be within 65 to 70% of it because it has to be a deal, right? You’re telling people you’re going to share a bathroom, you’re going to share a kitchen, so it has to be a deal. So I started testing ads at 60%, 65%, 70%, 75%, and 80% the price of the studio apartment, which is at that time the cheapest available option. And I started getting responses in all of them. I was like, okay, so it’s not about the price because now we’re talking about 7, 7 75, 800, 8 25, 8 50. My cheapest advertising at that point was 600. And I started getting people who would not have qualified anyways, they just got out of jail. They have multiple felonies, DUIs, and one thing I really like about Facebook marketplace is that you can click on their profile and see their pictures. As a general rule of thumb, if their profile picture is themselves holding a few guns with a lot of weed and a couple pit bulls, they’re probably not going to qualify. And so you don’t even have to waste time betting this possible tenant.

Ashley:
I’ve done that before too is where when I haven’t done in a while, but I used to post long-term rentals on Facebook and I would go and I’d also look at their interactions with comments or if they had pictures of them in their own house trying to look like, is it kept clean? Is it nice? You definitely can find a lot about a person by going through their Facebook page for sure.

Andres:
I think yes, because they are deliberately choosing that to be their avatar. They want the world to know them as that. So if you want the world to know you as that, well I will, might as well treat you like that. And there’s so much volume right now from my ads, so I can choose the better tenants. So right now I have a criteria where I’m really just looking for introverts and when they respond it’s like, Hey, tell me a little bit about yourself. I’m a night owl. I keep to myself. That’s perfect because what happens before, I was looking for building the community type of thing, and that usually means you’re going to get people who want to talk to others. They might be friends for a month, for six weeks. Eventually they’re going to crash because you don’t know that person. You don’t know their background.
While building my lease, I was like, what is the middle ground where, because eventually they’re going to come to you if there’s a problem and you have to be the referee, you broke the lease, you’re out. So what happened? The people that have a good background check that we’re living with people who don’t have a good background check, they start texting me. So I was like, what you don’t like about this? And I was like, man, they’re forcing us to do this. They’re forcing us to do that. They want us to buy the towel papers together, the toilet paper together. They want us to share this and that. It’s like, what would you like? I was like, I just want to mind my own business. Done. You’re allowed. And I kind of let each house Right now I have five closing more in two weeks. Hopefully. We’re almost there.

Tony:
And Andress on those five, can you just kind of walk us through in a little bit more detail? So you have five properties currently, how many rooms is that and how many specific tenants is that across all those rooms?

Andres:
It’s 36. 36 rooms. So about seven perhaps one has eight.

Ashley:
Oh my god, those are big houses.

Andres:
Yes.

Ashley:
Did you buy these big houses or did you add rooms to them? Take a dining room and add?

Andres:
We definitely add rooms because it’s really rare to find a seven room house. Actually, I don’t know if my Instagram is going to be somewhere in here, but I have videos of there because now I’m the GC on the property, so I do walkthroughs of the properties, how to do the layout, how to do the construction quickly. A lot of people when they’re acquiring these properties, they have a three month holding period plus another month of renting. The fastest one we did was we closed on August 13th. By September 1st it was fully renovated, fully stopped, so we didn’t have any holding costs. We added four rooms. We find all the people. My longest time has been three weeks except for the first one. The first one I went with a contractor and she stole my money. That’s how I ended up doing the construction myself.

Tony:
Well, you got to tell us a little bit about that story, Andress. I mean I feel like every real estate investor’s got at least one bad contractor story. So tell us about yours

Andres:
So she can recommend it to me by another couple of investors in the area. I went to check her work that was close to my property. She was doing two full fleets, full gut changing plumbing. Okay, that’s a big job. This is not a small time contractor. And then they started doing my job and then the guys are not showing up every two, three days, which sometimes is normal when they have multiple projects. And then spring break hits and I asked for LVP flooring that was in the contract, and I get to the home and I see the guys cutting the flooring with the meter saw and putting dust. So I was like, dust is wood. LVP doesn’t have any wood, this is laminate. Then I see the brand and it’s the cheapest thing that you can find at a Home Depot. And I was like, Hey, we didn’t agree on this. And she’s like, well, we already put it if you want, you’re going to have to pay more. And that was it. Okay, yeah, sorry. But I already knew that it was going to happen. Fetching me three days later, she doesn’t deliver the rest of the flooring. She took it, it was about $5,000 worth of flooring. She didn’t pay the guys for two weeks that I didn’t know. And then they come to the house, it’s like, Hey, she said you didn’t pay her. We’re going to destroy our work.

Ashley:
Oh my god. Geez, I’d be crying at this point, just so you know.

Andres:
I have to say at the property, the SAPs who did the tile work for the bathroom, tried to break in at Saturday at 2:00 AM So luckily I’m there. So I have to get on a fight with them, have to call the police. So after that, I stay at the property every night and I had to finish the work myself. I’m kind of handy and YouTube is your best friend. You can learn everything on YouTube right now. So I was going to Home Depot at 6:00 AM buying material, going to work from 9:00 AM to 11:00 PM going back to the job site, 1130 to 2:00 AM sleeping next day, say for two weeks. So there was no delay in my first property. We were like, we’re going to go live April 1st. We are going to go live April 1st no matter what because I bought that house with other people’s money so I cannot fail them even though I have the money to pay for another crew at this point because I don’t know how to hire them. I don’t know if what they’re doing is the only way that I know that it’s right is if I can do it myself and I can see that they’re doing it, I’m supposed to do it, then they’re doing it right.
That was a big experience. I almost have a heart attack during those two weeks. Had to go to the emergency room. My heart would just not stop because it’s a lot of stress. At the same time, I had some bad news with my wife. We need to do an IVF treatment, so I had to put another 25,000 into there. So my reserves are like, so anyways, we went live, the property wasn’t even finished and I already had five people moving in. So I made the rooms upstairs ready, the bathroom’s ready. I was like, look, the kitchen is not ready. Downstairs is not ready. Cool. They didn’t even see the room. So I think it was a blessing because now everybody wants to come see the rooms, but for the first one, it was all online. I didn’t even have pictures because the house wasn’t ready and these guys moved in, they paid a deposit, they liked the area so much, they just moved in.

Ashley:
I have to say, I’m so impressed with your hustle. I mean just all the side hustles that you’ve done throughout your life so far. But in this circumstance, not many people are willing to roll up the sleeves and to spend every night after working a full-time job working on their property just to meet their deadline, to be able to pay back the people that invested with them. And that really does take some character, and I commend you on that hustle. We had a similar experience happen and I’m very thankful. I had a partner on the deal who was the one that went in and did all of the work on it when we had to fire our contractors and had no one else to lean on. So just from watching him kind of go through that grind, I share a little bit of your experience, but I just want to commend you on that hustle.
And I hope everyone listening knows that sometimes things like this will happen in real estate where you are going to have these really stressful periods, but sometimes just working hard and putting in that labor, putting in that sweat equity, and that may not even be actually doing the physical labor of a rehab that might be sitting behind your computer trying to find money or analyzing deals every single night. That grind is what’s going to get you through that hard time in your investing journey. Just like, and Andreas just showed us there’s light at the end of the tunnel as to renting out the whole house without even having pictures available for people to look at.

Andres:
That was a blessing. I don’t know how I got that. And actually those guys are still there. So when I do my monthly check-ins, it’s funny, in January everybody got sick. So I do my monthly check-in I around January 3rd to go to the house and they’re all of them sitting in the dining area drinking chicken soup. And I was sick too. So I sat with them and we were talking about it and I was like, do you guys remember when you walked in? And I was like, yeah, man. I don’t know how I would never move anywhere else without pictures. I was literally sending pictures and it a war zone. It’s a construction zone. We build the walls, there’s drywall everywhere. It was a bad area. I dunno how they did it, but it worked out. Thank God they’re still there. It’s what? It’s

Tony:
Andres, you said that there’s not many just seven bedrooms laying around that you’re able to go out and purchase. So you’re converting a lot of these and adding the additional living space. So I guess as you’re sourcing your properties, what is it exactly that you’re looking for? What is your buy box? How do I know? As someone who’s never done this before, what type of property is a good candidate to turn into a seven or eight bedroom property?

Andres:
Pretty much you’re going to go by a square feet, right? Each room you want to be around 250 square feet. So you can multiply that by seven, but a lot of the times if you stay above 2000 square feet, you’re going to make it work for seven to eight rooms. But that really depends on the mortgage payment, right? Again, I bought all of these creatively. They’re all sub two seller finance. So we have 3% interest rate, 2.75% interest rate or PTIs are pretty low for Texas 1900, $2,000. So we get a good spread on the end. So even though I can put eight rooms, I say at seven, just to give it a little bit more space and parking is really important. So if I had to define my buy box, it would be minimum three bedrooms, two bedrooms, 1600 square feet plus. So if it’s 1600 square feet, I need A-P-I-T-B at 1600 or less, right?
If the PITI is above $2,000 a month, I need the square feet to be above 2000 as well because I need to add a seven room to make the cashflow work. And given all the work that you have to put into this, I think you need at least 2000 net every month. Otherwise the property is not really worth it. And I passed on a lot of deals because it’s like 1800, 1700, and I was like, yeah, no, I need 2000. It’s a lot of work and I do everything myself right now. I’m still training my replacement, but he’s very hands-on. I think to me, that’s one of the biggest things when I talk to other C investors, the moment they tell me it’s easy, I stopped talking to them because that means that they just started a month. They only have one property. They haven’t gone through it yet, but just think about it and you’re going to see it in the comments.
You have seven people from seven different backgrounds now sharing a house. You are the referee for everything. Everybody’s going to be texting you this and this and that. And now when I do coaching, it’s like the first three months, you’re going to be very intense because you have to put some people in line. You have two other people, let it go until you find the right fit. But after three months, my other houses that have been open for six, nine months, I don’t get a message for 60 days because those three months were very intense. I was on top. I was checking the security cameras outside like, Hey, you parked in the wrong place, this and that, no guests, blah, blah. But once you set up the culture of the house and you have two or three guys there with the culture of the house, like, Hey, we’re clean. Everybody parks in the right place and this is how we do it. Then the new people that move in, they’re going to follow that.

Ashley:
We have to take the final ad break, but we’ll be right back after this while we are gone, make sure you are subscribed to the Real Estate Rookie YouTube channel. Okay. Welcome back from our short break. And Andreas, you kind of mentioned there that you are doing all of your rehabs. Are you still working a W2 job?

Andres:
No. So I quit my job two days before Thanksgiving last year.

Tony:
Congratulations.

Andres:
I just couldn’t do it anymore. We were setting up a house at that time. I had three houses under contract for December, so it was going to be a lot of work and I don’t have any money in my saving accounts for the rookie is listening to that. At that point, I had $300 in my cashflow

Ashley:
And you quit your job

Andres:
And I quit my job. And when I said I bought my first house with my own money, I used credit cards. I didn’t have cash because we’ve missed a lot of, all my savings went away with my wife’s treatment and my heart problems. Every penny that I saved since I was 18 to this point when I’m 30, every dollar every night, I didn’t go out every saving that I was like for my investments, it went away in three months because of health issues. But I had to keep going and I quit my job. I got another property, and that’s how I kind of started doing side jobs as a general contractor because now I have good subs and a lot of people wants to do recall living. So I kind help them with the layout, helping them with the construction and make some money there now from the properties is enough cashflow to cover my basic needs. So it’s the first stage of financial freedom where if I really don’t want to get out of my house, I don’t have to, but we want to keep going.

Ashley:
And you found a business that integrates well with your real estate too. For a long time I was a property manager and I did it for myself and I did it for another investor and it worked out really well having that income alongside my real estate investments also too. So now that you’ve started this GC business, how are you becoming bankable or what are you doing without your W2 income to actually finance deals?

Andres:
Well, so all the deals, even the first one were bought with OPM. So for the rookies, that means other people’s money. So I actually got paid to buy each house, right? Because I’m acquiring the deals myself. So I have my wholesale fee in there or acquisition fee now, call it a management fee. So because all of these are creative deals, we buy them sub two, we don’t have to go to bank, we don’t have to talk to anybody. We just go to title company, direct to seller, direct to agent, and we acquire the houses. So each deal comes at around 65 to 80,000 total from acquisition repairs to furnishing. And I usually bring a private money partner to each deal and then we split the deal half and a half. So they bring all the money to closing and I do everything else. That’s why also I don’t think a property is worth, if I don’t make less than 2000 a month because I have to split that with my private money partners. So their cash on cash, but probably is between 40 and 50%. That’s a lot. You don’t find that laying around. That’s why I’ve had so much success, like raising money at the beginning because that’s really hard to find. And people that have money to invest, they want to make sure that it’s in a recession proof kind of investment and affordable housing, it’s always going to be around.

Tony:
And just let me ask, have you ever thought about doing co-living but through ground up development, just buying a plot of land or redeveloping a small house, tearing it down and just building something built specifically for co-living?

Andres:
Yes, that’s the next stage. Again, if we go back, I’m pretty new in real estate. I still dunno how to do it better. And that’s what I’m saying how to do right now. I still don’t get it. How do you guys refinance those properties? Those numbers are so wild because I get to the A RB, but then the appraisal is going to give me a different number. I really don’t get it. It’s a lot harder than creative finance. But yes, ground up is going to be the next step. So right now I have five closing six, I want to get to 10, and then after that do only ground up because at that point the cashflow is good enough where I can feel free and I can focus on finding land and develop that.

Ashley:
Well, Andres, thank you so much for coming onto the show today. Just real quick before we kind of wrap up here, would you just give us an overview of what your monthly cashflow is off of these five properties that you’ve been able to generate?

Andres:
Yes. So in total we make a little bit over 10,000. So depending on 10,500, 10,400 and what I split that half and a half with my private money partners together, half I get my half. I’ve had this year, 97% occupancy rate. I have only one turnover. Yeah, it’s been great so far. Honestly, I don’t see me slowing down with this. The only thing that slows me down is finding good deals because parking is very important here in Texas. Almost everybody drives a car and I don’t want to bother the neighbors.

Ashley:
Well, you just gave everybody shiny object syndrome looking to get that type of cashflow and everyone’s going to be looking into co-living. So Andres, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people reach out to you and find out more information?

Andres:
My Instagram is probably the best way. My handle is Andres Martinez, like my name C. And you can leave a question here in the comments. I’ll try to be here and respond because I have also some videos on YouTube so you guys can go see there and check and just reach out if you have any questions and be ready to work. If you tell me you’re lazy, I’m not going to respond.

Ashley:
Yeah, love that motto. Thank you so much for watching this episode of Real Estate Rookie. I’m Ashley. And he’s Tony. And we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

 

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Stocks are struggling, recession fears are ramping up, and investors are starting to worry. The stock market has been falling for weeks, major indexes are down, and new (rapidly changing) tariffs are only making things worse. But what does this actually mean for your investments? Is this just a stock market correction, or could real estate soon suffer the same fate? 

Today, we’re breaking down what’s going on in the US economy: why stocks are tanking, how the housing market could react, and what smart investors are doing right now. Should you sell, hold, or shift your stocks into real estate? Dave shares a big move he just made with his own portfolio and why he’s rethinking his investment strategy heading into a potential recession.

With so much uncertainty, you need to know what actually matters (and what doesn’t) for your portfolio. Will falling stock prices inadvertently trigger a real estate boom? Could lower inflation and interest rate cuts save the market? And most importantly—what should you do next? We can’t give you financial advice, but Dave is sharing what he’s doing with his money in this episode.

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave:
What a week it was for the economy. The stock market had sharp declines. The tariff roller coaster just keeps speeding along. Consumers are getting spooked, but meanwhile, inflation is coming down. So today we’re going to dive into the busy, crazy confusing last week we just had in the economy. We’ll talk about the stock market, the housing market, and I’ll catch you up on what is actually important and what you should be paying attention. I’ll share with you how your investments and your businesses could be impacted by recent economic changes. And I’m also going to share with you a pretty bold move I personally made with my own portfolio.
Hey everyone, it’s Dave head of Real Estate investing at BiggerPockets back with another economic news and data update for you. Things are happening fast right now and we’re making sure that here on the market we’re getting you timely, accurate, and rational analysis on all the news that matters. Let’s jump into today’s recap of the crazy week. That was last week, and we’re going to do our best to make sense of it all. So let’s just start with the big news. The stock market was angry last week actually for the last couple of weeks, and we’re going to start here because it sort of frames a lot of the other things that are going on in the economy and helps make sense of what you should be thinking about and your own decision making. So first things first, the market has now reached correction territory and for a lot of last week we’re hovering around there for the s and p 500.
So we are in that sort of correction territory and I think notably the market is now also down over the last six months and it’s not like six months is some special number that has any significance. The only reason I’m saying that is because it goes back to before the election because if you were paying attention to the stock market, you probably noticed there was a very big post-election bounce to the equities markets. And now as we fast forward to the middle of March here, all of the gains that we saw after Trump’s election have now been given back. We’re actually a little bit below where we were pre-election, but for all intents and purposes we’re pretty much flat. This is coming out Monday morning. We’re recording this Friday afternoon, so things may have changed a little bit, but that’s where we’re, as of the end of the week that I’m actually recording this.
And notably, all of the major indexes are down the s and p 500, the Dow Jones, the nasdaq, they’re all down. The NASDAQ has definitely been hit the furthest because it has heavy weighting in stocks that are tech-focused and tech-focused equities have been hit pretty hard. You may have heard this term, the Magnificent seven. It’s basically seven exceptional growth stocks that have really outperformed the market over the last couple of years. And honestly, in a lot of ways they’ve been carrying a lot of the indexes. When you see the s and p or the NASDAQ go up, a lot of it is because of just these seven companies. If you don’t know who they are, it’s Meta or Facebook, apple, alphabet, Google’s parent company, Amazon, Microsoft, Tesla, and Nvidia. And all of those companies are down this year with the exception of meta, which is modestly up.
And so although the whole stock market is down, a lot of it is because these big high cap companies are starting to deflate. So that’s what actually happened. But let’s take a minute and ask ourselves why did this happen and what does it mean? Should you be selling? Is this going to impact real estate? Let’s turn to the implications of what’s happening in the stock market. We’ll start with the why. We’ve covered this a bit in other recent episodes, but it’s in my mind at least a combination of things going on. First and foremost is tariffs. We got to talk about them, we’ve covered them a bit, but we will talk about what’s happened recently, particularly the unpredictable nature that they’ve been rolled out. The second thing is consumer confidence. And this is a sneaky thing that I think a lot of people underestimate. Its importance, but it really matters for both the stock market and the real estate market.
So we’re going to talk about that. And then personally, I actually also think that there’s something else going on here that’s maybe a little bit less exciting. It’s not as sensational, but I do think it’s playing a big role here. So we’re going to talk about all three. We’re going to start with tariffs because the whiplash that’s going on back and forth I think is causing a lot of the most recent turmoil just at least in the last week because honestly, even for someone like me who reads the news, multiple economic news sources every single day, it’s pretty hard to keep up. Actually, the Wall Street Journal, if you have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, they have a tracker of what’s happened in the last couple of days and they put out these timelines that are really nice visualizations. If you’re curious about what’s going on at any given point, recommend you check that out.
But the big picture here is that we still have a 25% import tariff on goods from Mexico and Canada. That took effect on March 4th, but there was an exception for energy products and those are just 10% tariffs. But after that, in the last week or so, the Trump administration did suspend the tariffs for automobiles. So that is not going to go into effect till at least April 2nd. And then there’s also been an exception or a carve out for other duty-free trade for any products or goods that fall under the US Mexico Canada agreement. There was also a short-term spat with the province of Ontario over electricity, but that was pulled back. So as of right now, the Mexico and Canada situation has been stable for a day or two. The situation with China has actually been stable over the last couple of weeks. We still have a 20% tariff on imports from China, but there were two other big things that happened this week.
One was that the Trump administration imposed a 25% tariff on all steel and aluminum imports. That is any company in the United States that is trying to import aluminum or steel is going to be charged that 25% tariff regardless of the country of origin. And then the last thing is that the European Union announced 50% imports on American whiskey motorcycles, motorboats, that’s going to start on April 1st and additional tariff beginning in mid April on other things like American chewing gum, poultry, soybeans, other sort of agricultural style products. And Trump in turn has said that he will retaliate against the European Union citing a potential 200% tariff on European alcohol like champagne and wine. So we’ve definitely seen that Trump is using tariffs as a negotiating tactic, but we’re also seeing the potential for a bigger trade war. This sort of tit for tat escalating tariffs, I do think is causing a lot of the fear that is coursing through the entire economy right now because people don’t really know what to expect.
And this is all still playing out, of course in very public fashion. But in regards to the economy and the stock market, and this is true whether you’re a fan of tariffs and think they’re going to help the economy long run or if you’re opposed to tariffs, the undeniable thing is that it’s creating a difficult and unpredictable business environment. Imagine if you’re an automaker or a construction worker or a retailer who sells imported goods from China. It is super hard to make decisions right now. You don’t know what your input costs are going to be from one day to the next. How could you possibly pay in your business? And business leaders don’t like this and neither do investors because if you think about people who are buying and selling stocks, they want to understand what import costs are going to be for any potential stock or company that they’re going to invest in. And because it’s so uncertain for the businesses, it becomes uncertain for the investors. And I do believe that’s probably the primary driver of the volatility that we’re seeing in the stock market right now. So that’s the first reason we’re seeing this economic fear and upheaval. I have two other things that I want to share with you, but first we’re going to take a quick break.
Welcome back to On the Market. We’re here recapping the crazy week in the economy. Last week we just talked about how tariffs are impacting the stock market and the broader economy. I have two other things to share with you before I get to one, what I’m doing with my own portfolio, and two, what you should be thinking about with your own investing. But let’s just talk quickly about a second cause that I think is a little bit overlooked, which is the state of the US consumer. And we talked a little bit about this last week about how consumer confidence has dropped significantly in recent months across a bunch of different measures. The shift from January to February was a pretty big drop. I think it was the biggest month over month drop that we’ve had in four years. Again, it’s just one month of data.
It’s not a trend just yet, but that does spook markets. And we also have some recent data that has sort of expanded on the increasing challenges that consumer face. And I want to remind everyone, the reason consumer spending and consumer confidence is so important is that it actually makes up about 70% of our GDP of our gross domestic product. That is what you and I are neighbors, are friends, consumers, what we spend makes up 70% of the entire economy of the United States. And I know a lot is made of how businesses spend money and how the government spend money that matters. But what matters way more is what consumers are thinking about and doing. And the data that has come out in the last few days has probably spooked markets a little bit more because it shows some weaknesses with American consumers. The big thing a lot of people react to, I don’t follow this that closely, but it does matter, is retail spending.
It’s basically people going to the stores, retail stores and spending money that has been down. Don’t get me wrong, it is not down that much, but it was the biggest drop we’ve had since March of 2023. So in about two years it’s not falling off a cliff. But as we’ve sort of discussed over the last couple of weeks, my personal belief is that investors and consumers everywhere right now are just super sensitive because there’s a lot of uncertainty going on and uncertainty causes sometimes outsized reactions to data. And I think that’s a little bit of what we’re seeing right here because this was just one month of data. But if the trend continues, I’ll certainly start to take it more seriously. But as a rule, one month, one piece of data doesn’t make a trend. And it’s better I think to be patient and just see what happens.
But it is a data point that I think the markets are reacting to. One thing I’ve been personally paying attention to is just savings rates because it really tells a lot about how much money people have to spend and how much is going to be injected back into the economy. And the Wall Street Journal actually came out with this really good graphic of this and it shows the American savings rate relative to pre pandemic level. So looking back to what was happening in 2019, you could see that during the pandemic things were sort of unnaturally high. So the first round of stimulus checks came out, the savings rate jumped to about 35% above where it was in 2019. That was pretty crazy. Second stimulus, it went to 20% above 2019 when the third stimulus check came out went to about 25%. Now we’re back down to about 3.4%.
To me, this is just sort of inevitable, right? Because without those stimulus checks, the savings rate never would’ve went that high. So seeing it come back to where it was around pre pandemic levels in my opinion, is just what will naturally happen. But when you take this information in conjunction with inflation and decline in consumer sentiment and increases on credit card defaults and car loan defaults, the whole picture is starting to feel like the American consumer is showing some weakness, right? Because a while we saw that Americans were able to bear the burden of inflation and higher interest rates because they had extra savings. They might not have been making enough money to cover this, but they could come out of savings to cover some of those unfortunate increases in costs. But now that savings rate, the amount that people have leftover to cover these ever increasing costs is depleted.
And to me that could spell some more trouble for American consumers in the coming months. And investors in the stock market are seeing this as well. They’re sort of downgrading a lot of retail players. We’re seeing a lot of retail and consumer focused companies downgrade stock forecast. So I think the market is reacting in a large part to some softness with the American consumer. And just one thing that I’ve personally been thinking about, this is just kind of a rant here, but I saw some data recently that said that 50% of consumer spending in the United States right now comes from just the top 10% of US consumers, which is pretty crazy if you think about it. I just said that consumer spending is 70% of US GDP. So if you multiply those two little facts together, you’ve realized that 35% of our entire economy is the spending of the top 10% wealthiest Americans in the United States, which is pretty nuts.
And the reason I’ve been thinking about that a lot recently is wealthy people tend to be heavily invested in the stock market. And so if the stock market stays down, and I don’t know if it will, but if it does stay down and these wealthy folks spend less, that could have recession implications. I don’t know if that’s happening. I’m just sharing this thought that I’ve been having over the last couple of days with you. It’s something to keep an eye out for if the stock market stays down, if that has sort of a spillover effect onto consumer behavior. So that was the second thing. We talked about tariffs, then we talked about the state of the American consumer. The third thing that I want to share is less about current news. It’s less about economic policy. And this is of course just my opinion here, but to me, the markets just seem overvalued.
If you’ve been listening to me on the BiggerPockets podcast, I’ve been talking about this since the beginning of the year, but there are all different ways to value the US stock market, and almost all of them say that the market is overvalued, right? So one that I really like to look at is what people call the buffet indicator named after Warren Buffett, where he has sort of famously compared the total value of the US stock market to GDP, to the total economic output of our country. And at the beginning of the year, that ratio was above 200%, which is just well above the long-term average and is an indication that stocks are just too expensive right now. You could also look at things like PE ratios, price to earnings ratios, which is basically how expensive a stock is based on the earnings of that particular company.
And what you saw at the end of the year is that it was actually two standard deviations above the historical trend. This is very, very high. The total value of the stock market wasn’t about 28. It’s come back down over the last couple of days. And these are just two ways to look at it. There are plenty of ways to do it, but most every way you look at it, stocks are super expensive right now. And to me that makes prices very unstable because remember, although most of us here watching on the market are primarily real estate investors, this isn’t the housing market. In the housing market. When things are more expensive or unaffordable, people can just live in their homes and as long as they’re making their mortgage payments, they could do nothing as we’ve seen very well over the last couple of years.
But when stocks are overpriced, there is a lot of risk because it’s a more liquid asset and people can sell those stocks. No, it needs to own those stocks and put them in safer assets. So to me, when the stock market is as expensive, relatively expensive as it is right now, there is a lot of risk. And there’s actually been some studies that show that when PE ratios reach this level, returns for the stock market underperformed for up to a decade. We’ve actually seen major banks and financial institutions like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase have predicted about a 3% real return for the next 10 years that’s probably going to underperform bonds. So I think that the fact that the stock market is expensive right now is contributing to declines because investors might just be looking for reasons to sell off and to take profit and to take some risk off the table.
And so when these data points come out that don’t tell a holistic or conclusive picture just yet, people are getting a little bit spooked because it’s at relatively high levels. If we saw the same data point and the market had already corrected 20 or 30%, right, it would probably be a little bit different. But since we’re at such highs, it does feel a little bit unstable, at least to me. And I think that’s sort of the general vibe in a lot of the stock market right now. Now, none of this makes these declines any less real or any less important, but to me some of it is just part of a normal business cycle of a normal equity cycle. We had excellent years in the stock market in 2023 and 20 24, 2 really good back to back years. And so having the stock market come down a bit here in 2025 to me is just sort of inevitable. So there are definitely other things going on in the stock market, but to me, those are the big three things that I’ve been watching. And I recommend you do too because as we’re going to talk about after the break, this does have big implications for the real estate market. When we come back, we’ll talk about the big kind of bold move I made with my own portfolio and what you should be thinking about as we head into the second quarter of 2025.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On the Market. We are recapping the economic news of the last week. We’ve talked about tariffs, we’ve talked about consumer confidence. We’ve talked about the relative expensiveness of the stock market. And now I’m going to tell you about what I have actually done about this. I mentioned this on Instagram. I got a lot of good feedback about this, but I actually wound up about two weeks ago selling close to 25% of my stock portfolio. I’m going to explain why, but I want to preface what I am about to say that this is not advice for you. Not everyone should do what I did. In fact, most people should do the opposite of what I did. It’s just about what your individual goals are. But for me, I’ve been saying this for months and I took a long time to think about this, but I’ve been staring at an equities market that to me seems overheated.
There’s a lot of volatility and I believe that there is upside for real estate in the coming years. I think there could be a good environment to buy in single family homes, small multifamily. I think particularly in commercial multifamily, there’s going to be some good opportunities. So I wanted to take some money out of the equities market and put it into real estate. And yeah, I’m going to pay some capital gains tax and that is a risk that I’m willing to take. But since I dollar cost average in which basically just means I put small amounts of money into the stock market regularly, some of that I’ve put in recently and has either taken a loss or hasn’t grown that much. And so if I sell those stocks with a higher tax basis, I won’t have that big of a capital gain tax. I will pay something in capital gains for sure though.
But I just kind of think right now the way I’m looking at this is that this cycles the market cycles in real estate and in equities, the stock market, they’re just different. And based on my personal goals, I want to shift some of my asset allocation towards real estate and towards just being defensive in general, actually reducing my own living expenses. And I still have a large equities portfolio that I could retire off of in 15 to 20 years despite the majority of my net worth being in real estate. It’s not like I am panic selling, I just want to shift a little bit more towards real estate right now. I’m not going to buy the first real estate deal. I see I’m going to take some of this money, pay down my mortgage so I have more cash coming in that I can sit on because frankly, I am comfortable sitting on cash right now for a few months or even a year to find deals in real estate that I believe are going to come.
Now, of course, you could be different if you have different goals. Do not do this. If you’re going to sell your stock portfolio and do nothing with that money, you’re probably better keeping it in the stock market. I have a specific plan for what I’m going to do with this money and believe it will outperform even with the taxes, the stock market. But that is just my opinion, and I could be wrong and I’m willing to take that bet. I just feel, because I talk about investing publicly, I want to tell you what I’m actually doing with my own money that I put my money where my mouth is, even though it doesn’t apply to everyone watching. So anyway, that’s what I’m doing, but let’s just talk a little bit about what happens now and what you should be thinking about and watching as we go forward.
First one encouraging piece of news was that inflation came in lower than expected last week amidst all this other stuff that was going on. I think this was kind of missed, but that was good news. Even amidst tariff fears. It was great I think to see that inflation was coming down because it actually had gone up in December and January. Now, I do think we all have to pay close attention to inflation data over the next couple of months because tariffs have just recently gone into place, and it does take a little bit of time for that to work its way too consumers. And so we’ll see if inflation goes up in April, in May, in June, if the trend of flat or declining inflation continues, that would be great, but there is some risk that inflation might heat up with the introduction of tariffs.
Next thing to look for is I think a lot of sort of the future of the economy, the stock market, the housing market, all of it really comes down to the labor market because if the labor market cracks and we’re starting to see a little bit of cracks, but honestly, the labor market has been remarkably resilient. The American labor market is very strong relative to where we are in the market cycle. Despite a lot of challenges, yeah, we are seeing more layoffs, but the facts that the unemployment rate is still in the low fours is honestly pretty incredible to me. But if the labor market cracks, I think we go into a recession and with that, the stock market is probably going to decline further. Then we’ll see bond yields fall because people take their money out of the stock market, they put ’em into bonds, that drives down yields.
We’ll probably see the Fed reacts to a weakening labor market by lowering interest rates. And all of that will probably create conditions where mortgage rates come down. And we probably have a more interesting, more affordable housing market if labor continues. Its somewhat amazing resilience. I think we get that soft landing. The stock market probably will stabilize and start growing again, but we will see rates higher for longer, and that will probably mean a lot of challenges in the housing market for the foreseeable future. My guess, and I’m making this guess here on March 14th, 2025, is that there’s a 66% chance that we go into a recession this year, like two thirds, one third, and Trump himself has said that he thinks it’s possible that the US goes into a recession. He personally believes that is worth it to implement the economic policies that he is looking at, but I think the economy investors are reacting to that.
A lot of what Trump is doing in the short term does have the potential to tip the US into the recession. But I also believe, and I think this is probably a whole other episode I can get into, but I also think a lot of people overweight recent news when it comes to things like recessions because the American economy, although it can change based on new tariffs or something like that, a lot of these things are big long-term trends when you just look and zoom out at the economic and business cycle. We’ve been sort of at a high for a little bit for a while. We’ve had high interest rates and the economy has held up amazingly well to that. But I do think just eventually the economy does have to react and adjust to a new reality. And that is probably the primary driver of why I think it’s more probable that a recession comes in 2025 than not.
But also, like I said, there’s still probably about a one third chance that we avoid that recession. Now, if we go into a recession, how deep is it going to be? How bad is it going to be? I don’t know. It could be mild, it could be significant if the labor market gets really bad, I think it’s a little bit too early to tell. I don’t have a specific prediction or anything like that. But as an active investor, that means that I am sort of overall across all of my assets, all of my holdings. I’m trying to lower risk in general. I just told you I sold some stocks and I’m going to keep a lot of that money in money market accounts earning interest. I’m going to use some of it to pay down my mortgage and lower my living expenses while I wait for real estate deals to materialize.
Then maybe I’ll refinance my primary residence and use that to go buy some more real estate deals. And again, I’m not telling you to do the same thing. I actively manage my portfolio. I don’t buy my own stocks, but I reallocate between stocks, bonds, money market real estate somewhat regularly, and I am trying to set myself up for the best long-term cashflow. So whenever I see real estate conditions start to get better, especially relative to other asset classes, I put myself in a position to reallocate. I am pretty excited about the potential for commercial multifamily in the next couple of years, and that’s what I’m looking to buy. So I’m positioning myself to be able to do that sometime here in 2025, but that’s what I’m doing. Would love to know how you are all handling this volatility. So if you’re watching on YouTube, definitely let me know in the comments. Or if you’re listening on the podcast, hit me up either on BiggerPockets or on Instagram and let me know what you’re doing to manage this really confusing volatile economy that we’re in right now. Thank you all so much for checking out this episode of On The Market for BiggerPockets. I’m Dave Meyer. I’ll see you next time.

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In This Episode We Cover

  • Why the stock market is sliding and whether a recession is next
  • The psychological impact of new tariffs on the economy (and YOUR investments)
  • The almost unbelievable (and borderline frightening) metric about consumer spending
  • Why Dave sold a sizable chunk of his stock portfolio (and where that money is going)
  • How a stock market correction could shake up the housing market
  • What lower inflation and possible rate cuts could mean for real estate
  • The key economic signals you NEED to watch over the next few months
  • And So Much More!

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